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Offline asian1Topic starter

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LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« on: November 01, 2003, 09:58:23 AM »
Hello
There is a confirmation from Mandrake Linux X86
that their new distro (9.2) may destroy non
ATAPI compliant CD-ROM drive from LG.
Apparently LG use "FLUSH_CACHE" command to
delete firmware on their CD-ROM.
Is there any similar problem with Linux PowerPC?
 

Offline Floid

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2003, 10:07:51 AM »
As I understand it, the problem was somehow specific to their kernel branch, hence it being reported as Mandrake's problem, not Linux's in general.

But it *is* a standard ATA command (not x86-specific in any way) that isn't supposed to go destroying hardware, so avoiding the affected drives would be a good idea on principle.  

And hm, Mandrake does have a PPC build, don't they?  So yeah, if they used the same kernel tree there, it could possibly be a problem... Why not just ask them?

Mandrake Erratum Report

Edit: Aha, they don't list 9.2 for PowerPC yet, so that solves that.
 

Offline bhoggett

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2003, 11:23:48 AM »
It does seem to be limited to Mandrake and a System Rescue CD at the moment (but that could also affect other distros - no reported incidents don't mean a clean bill of health). It does seem to be a problem with the LG drives, as a firmware upgrade is said to remove the threat. I gather the affected distros are also addressing their end of the problem.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2003, 11:28:40 AM »
My LG DVD/CD-RW combo drive works with Red Hat Linux 9.0 setup…
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Offline Floid

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2003, 12:51:14 PM »
Quote

bhoggett wrote:
It does seem to be limited to Mandrake and a System Rescue CD at the moment (but that could also affect other distros - no reported incidents don't mean a clean bill of health). It does seem to be a problem with the LG drives, as a firmware upgrade is said to remove the threat. I gather the affected distros are also addressing their end of the problem.


No reported incidents, plus Mandrake's specification of the -mdk tree (they're taking the blame), does suggest this particular nugget didn't enter the mainline (Linus's or Marcelo's trees), and between that and the publicity, one can hope and assume it won't spread further.

Anyone else is free to make the same 'mistake,' of course.   It's an easy one to make; you just write perfectly valid code, following the same popular and generally-accepted  specifications as the rest of the world adheres to, then find out a million units in the field were designed to blow up when presented with it. ;)  Even MS could have the same problem, though their codependency with the hardware companies gives them better chances of catching  blatant issues before releasing.

(Even then, Windows 98 wouldn't install properly* on a rather large base of Via-chipset-based boards.  That was one of the issues that forced 98SE to market, though they used the opportunity to integrate the new Media Player and other monopoly features.)

Hammer said,
Quote
My LG DVD/CD-RW combo drive works with Red Hat Linux 9.0 setup…
The CD-Rs are always going to be unaffected, because they have to support the offending command just to function.

From the erratum, which could be worded better:
"The specification does not require an implementation of the FLUSH_CACHE command in the driver, and returning an error (or doing nothing) would have been the correct behaviour for the drive. Likewise, reusing a command is against the specification and LG has reused the FLUSH_CACHE command to modify the firmware of the drive, but they are unwilling to disclose exactly what the command does.  This FLUSH_CACHE command is supposed to be supported only by CD-RW or DVD-RW devices; the LG-based CD-ROM devices are understanding this command as the UPLOAD_FIRMWARE command."

So the code in the Mandrake kernel took what should be a safe shortcut - sends the FLUSH_CACHE command without checking the drive type, expects an ignore/rejection at worst, per the spec; LG designed their CD-ROM readers to go into self-destruct mode instead.  It's like someone sold you an Amiga where the 'dir' command formats the hard drive. ;)  Mandrake's changing their code to avoid any unnecessary destruction, while LG have probably been embarassed into compliance on new units/through fixes for the installed ones.

What makes it a mess is that you can't resuscitate a drive yourself *after* the firmware's been wiped.

*Since someone's going to call me on this; you could obviously get it installed with enough struggle, and OEMs didn't have so much problem, because they only had to create one working disk image to blow onto all affected machines.  Original '98 didn't support the Via chips completely/outright, and of course it wouldn't fall back to BIOS-grade access automatically, so you'd run the installer, boot, watch your system freeze - at least, if it was configured like mine - then have to kick it into Safe Mode yourself and install Via's drivers.  Not quite as destructive as this fiasco, but another example of 'unforseen hardware problems.'  In that case, MS made that assumption that no hardware would exist to supplant the current state of the market (a MS-grade assumption, if there ever was); they've since learned a thing or two, and XP takes a slightly more stable approach in those domains, while MS is extra-sure to twist the arms of manufacturers.
 

Offline Eric_Z

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2003, 01:34:05 PM »
So who's got first hand experience on this...

*Raises hand*
 

Offline asian1Topic starter

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2003, 02:37:05 PM »
>1st hand experience.

Hello
Me! I had suggested to local DELL agent about
flashing or replacing just the firmware.
They refused and they said that I must buy
NEW laptop CD-ROM drive. Local LG office
said that they cannot help me and they
don't sell such CD-ROM drive.
There are several millions of LG CD-ROM sold
to leading PC vendors (ie DELL, Compaq), and
the drive cost only US$ 20. It's strange that
Mandrakesoft DID NOT test their product
with the popular hardware.
 

Offline bhoggett

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2003, 03:05:26 PM »
@asian1

In all fairness, this is a claim that can be made for thousands of hardware items. Mandrake distros go through fairly comprehensive test periods before being made available as stable releases, so the conclusion must be that no one testing the release candidates had one of these LG drives.

The problem is caused by LG being unbelievably lame in producing non-compliant hardware. Their excuse is that they "don't support Linux", although any system using a similar packet writing patch would cause the same problem.

For an ironic twist:

http://www.sysresccd.org/download.en.php

The conclusion is the same as always: unless you're an exclusive Windows user, stay away from hacky hardware manufacturers like Dell and LG.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2003, 03:57:45 AM »
Quote
(Even then, Windows 98 wouldn't install properly* on a rather large base of Via-chipset-based boards.

I have no problems installing Windows 98 with my old MSI-6330 (KT133A), with V3.1 (and up to V3.6) and MSI-6330 V5.

**Issues installing with MSI supplied CD (obsolete) VIA drivers with BIOS 3 (i.e. causes BSOD). Version # 4.32.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2003, 04:03:14 AM »
Quote

The conclusion is the same as always: unless you're an exclusive Windows user, stay away from hacky hardware manufacturers like Dell and LG.

Note that Dell is part of the “Unbreakable Linux” alliance i.e. with Red Hat Linux...
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Offline Hammer

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2003, 04:15:27 AM »
Quote
What makes it a mess is that you can't resuscitate a drive yourself *after* the firmware's been wiped.

Have you tried MTK Win Flash (V 1.5.3.6) or MTKflash (V162)(DOS) to do a forced (i.e. Direct IDE Port Mode) flash?

I was forced to re-flash my LG drive after Blindwrite vs LG flash upgrade conflicts.  The conflicts caused the drive to be unusable (i.e. ruined firmware due to untimely system reset).
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Offline Floid

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2003, 06:06:25 AM »
Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
What makes it a mess is that you can't resuscitate a drive yourself *after* the firmware's been wiped.

Have you tried MTK Win Flash (V 1.5.3.6) or MTKflash (V162)(DOS) to do a forced (i.e. Direct IDE Port Mode) flash?

I was forced to re-flash my LG drive after Blindwrite vs LG flash upgrade conflicts.  The conflicts caused the drive to be unusable (i.e. ruined firmware due to untimely system reset).

Don't look at me, I run FreeBSD.  But maybe that'll prove some help to others.  (I knew I'd be called on that, too.  Maybe it's not impossible; obviously it's far less than straightforward for the average user.)

Testing is great, but like I said, they're Mandrake, not MS; companies aren't exactly throwing free evaluation hardware at them, and their coffers to purchase same are relatively small.  Maybe a better handling of betatesting/release candidates could've saved them; I don't know how their development model works now.  They tried to follow best-practices; LG (and Dell, by proxy) didn't.

...and the Via chipset I'm thinking of was the MVP3, while it probably didn't help that I had my drives on a SCSI card (which would further demand 'IRQ routing' to work properly).  Never put any Windows on my KT133A machine, let alone '98 original. ;)
 

Offline DethKnight

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2003, 07:42:46 AM »
My JAMD Linux works fine with my LG DVD drive, though I was forced to  update the firmware to watch LOTR.

LG only allows 5 flashes total to the rom, then you're just stuck with whatever you did in flash #5.

I've already used flash #1, please dont make me have to do it again LG.
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Offline Cymric

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Re: LG CD-ROM destroyed by Linux
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2003, 10:04:23 AM »
All the more reason to stay away from the brand.
Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.