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Author Topic: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?  (Read 16111 times)

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Offline NlandasTopic starter

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2009, 09:33:50 PM »
Quote from: persia;515988
An Amiga in a joystick might sell.  
It used to be fun when the Amiga was cutting edge, but it isn't, to borrow from another thread, the whole idea of snapshots in 2009 is a bit like film cameras.  In order to build apps for the Amiga you have to start from scratch, iPhone gives you all the tools, if I want to add a browser bit to my App calls to the Safari  api are right there.  And the OS doesn't help you and without memory protection it actually fights you at times.

Sorry about the rant...



Wasn't someone working on an IDE for Amiga? I thought I read something about it being good and that Amiga, Inc. hired him to continue developing it. He seemed like a really good guy.

With a quality IDE for new new AmigaOS it might be easier to port/develop applications for it. No?
I think, Therefore - Amiga....
 

Offline cv643d

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2009, 09:46:05 PM »
It did not sound as if he worked on an Os4 app for Amiga.inc, but more as if it was an AA2 IDE.
Amiga articles
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Offline NlandasTopic starter

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2009, 09:46:40 PM »
Quote from: Wayne;515989
It was some good number, but you're forgetting one very important point.

Jeri didn't build a computer.  She built a way to play all your old favorite C64 games in a joystick form.  


True but it could also be used as a computer with some modifications. Hi-Toro originally was tasked with building a game machine and Jay Minor had the vision to say, let's make it a computer that plays games.

Quote from: Wayne;515989

Unless that machine is comparable to what is currently available in the PC and/or Mac world both on a price and performance level, then I'm afraid you'd be in for a bit of disappointment.

Most people cannot fathom paying $2k (or even 1k)+ for a desktop machine with an unsupported OS that runs slower than their $399 laptop from Dell.  Dedicated hobbyists, sure, but they're not "normal" where the average computer buyer is concerned.


Why does it have to cost $2K. If they'd use off the shelf components they could certainly get the cost down significantly.

Quote from: Wayne;515989

Build the Amiga on a joystick, add in the top 50 games and/or a way to import them off of SD memory card and yeah, it'd sell a few hundred thousand at best, but that's still not enough, because it's sales/impact would be a short-lived event and there's not much to follow that up with...


I agree, don't make an Amiga joystick - make a modern computer with AmigaOS. With a full IDE and get developers to port software.


Quote from: Wayne;515989

Everyone these days wants real computers, or wants popular and expandable game consoles (XBox PS3, Wii, etc) but no one wants an underpowered, overpriced desktop solution with zero software support.


I'll have to disagree that any Amiga solution by nature has to be over priced and underpowered. Firstly, AmigaOS is hardly as bloated as other leading OSs. It doesn't require as much horse power to run to begin with. Besides, if they can use readily available off the shelf components why does it have to be overpriced, underpowered, etc.

I think we've all become really jaded. I'd love to see a new complete system with IDE. I'd be happy to have AmigaOS running Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice. Then I'd work towards other applications on it. The bottom line is, I've never been happy with any other Operating System and I've used a lot of them.

Quote from: Wayne;515989

Sorry to be so brutal, and yes, you'd think as "the Amiga.org guy" I'd be a little more supportive, but I've been fighting this fight to no avail for 15 years now and still no one (except maybe Dammy and AROS) "gets it".


I understand being tired. I understand it's not easy to enter into a saturated market where PC hardware is now a commodity. I certainly understand how you feel. I know it's an Amiga comeback would be nigh imossible but you know what.

I am still interested. Bring it on, show me something new - Show me an OS that looks good but is still streamilined and it doesn't feel like the machine is designed to run the OS, the OS is just there as part of the machine to run the software.

I'm ready, if it actually happens - I'm there and I know that many other old time Amiga fans are still watching, waiting and hoping for something concrete.
I think, Therefore - Amiga....
 

Offline Argo

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2009, 03:51:41 AM »
Quote from: Nlandas;515985
Hi Wayne,

Didn't Jeri sell like over a  million of those C64 Joysticks on QVC? I think we might all be surprised the number of lurkers that hold Amiga fondly in their hearts who would buy a new computer if it was released. A lot of it depends on price point that they can achieve and if they can get a modern web browser on it. Why is porting Firefox so hard?

-Nyle


Dependencies, Dependencies of Dependencies, Dependencies of Dependencies of Dependencies
Interfacing with the Amiga OS GUI, more dependencies. Though that could be done like the Mac OS port of OpenOffice.org and use X. It took that effort 5 years from a stable port to get a native GUI.
Programmers.  I was on the list for the OpenOffice.org port effort lead by the Frieden brothers. There were like three other active programmers with only a few other occasional contributers.

Not sure the Mozilla bounty is doing much better.

And I've been waiting quite awhile for an IDE...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 03:57:10 AM by Argo »
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2009, 03:40:06 AM »
Quote from: Nlandas;516001

Why does it have to cost $2K. If they'd use off the shelf components they could certainly get the cost down significantly.


At which point, just buy a PC and grab a copy of UAE.



Quote from: Nlandas;516001

I agree, don't make an Amiga joystick - make a modern computer with AmigaOS. With a full IDE and get developers to port software.


Not going to happen. Beyond hobbyists the Amiga is a dead platform. I remember when I was following BeOS and it's (as it turned out, ill fated) revival back on 03-06, even getting relatively small apps ported like AbiWord was a monumental effort, as was Firefox and BeOS had the benefits of being relatively Unix like in file structure as well as Posix compliance. Porting things to the Amiga, especially with it lacking many development tools that many of todays coders would take for granted on other platforms would make it a no go proposition, even if the Amiga community had as many devs as the BeOS one still does.


Quote from: Nlandas;516001

I'll have to disagree that any Amiga solution by nature has to be over priced and underpowered.


Small production runs = big cost per unit and there is no way of getting around that.

Quote from: Nlandas;516001

Firstly, AmigaOS is hardly as bloated as other leading OSs.


Stop right there. If you are talking about entering the embedded space, the size of the OS is important, for desktop systems, it is utterly irrelevant. The only thing that matters is capability and reliability. As it stands, AmigaOS could not be ported to any PC for sale today with the exception of Mini-ITX and netbooks due to the prevelance of multi processors in PCs.

Quote from: Nlandas;516001

 It doesn't require as much horse power to run to begin with. Besides, if they can use readily available off the shelf components why does it have to be overpriced, underpowered, etc.


Because due to the AmigaOS's inherent deficiencies, you are limited either to rolling your own or using very niche (and price-performance wise) none too great hardware.

Quote from: Nlandas;516001

I think we've all become really jaded. I'd love to see a new complete system with IDE.


Not going to happen, this is not being jaded, it is being realistic, there simply isn't the manpower available to the community any more.

Quote from: Nlandas;516001

 I'd be happy to have AmigaOS running Firefox


No you wouldn't. Firefox haemorrhage's ram, especially when you start lobbing in addons. Without memory protection you'd end up with a browser even less stable then Voyager 3.1 was, and that's saying something!

Quote from: Nlandas;516001
OpenOffice.


Good luck with that. BeOS is a far easier target to port to and it was beyond them in anything like a reasonable timeframe - even at the height of that scene's resurgence.

Quote from: Nlandas;516001

 Then I'd work towards other applications on it. The bottom line is, I've never been happy with any other Operating System and I've used a lot of them.


And that is your absolute right. But be aware that beyond people with a soft spot for the old girl, serious development for the platform is over. The last big push for Amiga software was 1997-2000, after that it's been downhill all the way since both in terms of quantity and quality of software.

Quote from: Nlandas;516001

I understand being tired. I understand it's not easy to enter into a saturated market where PC hardware is now a commodity. I certainly understand how you feel. I know it's an Amiga comeback would be nigh imossible but you know what.


Outside of someone pumping in more money into the scene then sub saharan Africas GDP and ripping the rights to the name and IP out of the cold dead hands of billy boy, there is precisely zero chance of it being a player. And if I'm blunt: To get to the point where it could compete would require a root and branch redesign of the whole OS in order to bring it up to snuff.

Quite frankly the only thing that will continue the Amiga in terms of hardware is the MiniMig. I won't even say the NatAmi on the basis that it's shaping up to be the next BoXeR. The Amiga is now, and will forever be at this stage in the game, a hobbyist device from a bygone era.

Quote from: Nlandas;516001

I am still interested. Bring it on, show me something new - Show me an OS that looks good but is still streamilined and it doesn't feel like the machine is designed to run the OS, the OS is just there as part of the machine to run the software.


I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Try an Enlightenment based linux if you want fast and flashy.

Quote from: Nlandas;516001

I'm ready, if it actually happens - I'm there and I know that many other old time Amiga fans are still watching, waiting and hoping for something concrete.


Whilst Billy boy and hyperion try to rip each other off, there is no point in continuing any discussion on the matter of "Amiga's Future". With few exceptions, the past 9 years has been filled with lies, fraud and mind numbingly stupid business moves by everyone involved. The show has been run by crooks and the users have been suckered and made to suffer for it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 04:50:22 AM by the_leander »
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Offline Piru

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2009, 11:22:36 AM »
Quote from: Nlandas;515999
With a quality IDE for new new AmigaOS it might be easier to port/develop applications for it. No?

Port: Certainly not.
Develop: IDE can't write the program for you, so not really.

The real problem for any amigalike OS is the lack of market. No serious software house will ever even consider doing any work for these platforms unless if the potential market is at least several magnitudes larger.

Having quality IDE will not fix this.

It's a hobby. It's time to accept this.
 

Offline DiskDoctor

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2009, 01:22:11 PM »
Quote from: Piru;516104
Port: Certainly not.
Develop: IDE can't write the program for you, so not really.

The real problem for any amigalike OS is the lack of market. No serious software house will ever even consider doing any work for these platforms unless if the potential market is at least several magnitudes larger.

Having quality IDE will not fix this.

It's a hobby. It's time to accept this.


This is why Amiga community needs freelance programmers - and proprietary applications designed specifically for Amiga.
Was: Mac Mini PPC running MorphOS 2.4
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Offline Manu

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2009, 01:22:19 PM »
@the_leander

That was the best "down to earth" post I have ever read on a.org i think.
I'm (long ago) fed up with the crooks and I'll be behind Aros instead. I don't have to ever pay for overpriced hardware again, and since Aros is my hobby OS, every penny I spend on it I can decide to input to bounties or pay developers directly.
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current, hardware-intensive solutions. And they\\\'d go faster. --D.Haynie
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Offline Piru

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2009, 02:23:22 PM »
Quote from: DiskDoctor;516114
This is why Amiga community needs freelance programmers - and proprietary applications designed specifically for Amiga.

freelance is in "never going to see a penny for my work" ?
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2009, 02:30:56 PM »
Quote from: DiskDoctor;516114
This is why Amiga community needs freelance programmers - and proprietary applications designed specifically for Amiga.


Niether of which are going to happen - the platform is dead as a serious proposition. Hobbyists yes, professionals no.

As I said, without a truly biblical amount of cash injected into the Amiga, it will remain a purely hobbyist platform. Even with the offer of such cash, with the current legal nonsense going on it is pointless in the extreme to even think about.

Seriously, the Amiga will never become a viable platform again for professional development. I'm sorry, but that is the truth.

--edit--

Damnit... Piru did it better.
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Offline dammy

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2009, 02:41:48 PM »
Quote from: the_leander;516122
Niether of which are going to happen - the platform is dead as a serious proposition. Hobbyists yes, professionals no.

As I said, without a truly biblical amount of cash injected into the Amiga, it will remain a purely hobbyist platform. Even with the offer of such cash, with the current legal nonsense going on it is pointless in the extreme to even think about.

Seriously, the Amiga will never become a viable platform again for professional development. I'm sorry, but that is the truth.

--edit--

Damnit... Piru did it better.


It's a hobby on it's death bed.  Unless your getting new people interested in the "Amiga" community, your population of users is declining.  There are only so many people interested in dealing with a 1980s-1990s OS on ancient hardware (or over priced, under preforming hardware).  You want to see Amiga Community's future, look at the pictures from AmiWest as that is the Amiga Community's destiny.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2009, 02:50:06 PM »
Quote from: dammy;516125
It's a hobby on it's death bed.  Unless your getting new people interested in the "Amiga" community, your population of users is declining.  There are only so many people interested in dealing with a 1980s-1990s OS on ancient hardware (or over priced, under preforming hardware).  You want to see Amiga Community's future, look at the pictures from AmiWest as that is the Amiga Community's destiny.


I can't disagree with any of that.

I guess my major concern is that some folks simply cannot get past "Amiga is the next big thing and will totally pwn Microsoft". It's offputting to people interested in trying it out as a retro system.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2009, 03:08:14 PM »
The AmigaOS 4.1 review on OSNews.com ( http://www.osnews.com/story/21826/sam440ep_AmigaOS_4_1 ) sums it up nicely...

"However, said fun and coolness comes at a massive price, and this time, I'm not talking about the price of the soft and hardware. Despite the lipstick the developers put on the system (in the form of transparency and other fanciness) it's still very clear that the AmigaOS is a relic, a thing from the past. The application portfolio is outdated, lacking, and incapable, there's no protected memory, and many configuration panels are overwhelmingly difficult to understand and use."

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2009, 03:28:57 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;516128
The AmigaOS 4.1 review on OSNews.com ( http://www.osnews.com/story/21826/sam440ep_AmigaOS_4_1 ) sums it up nicely...

"However, said fun and coolness comes at a massive price, and this time, I'm not talking about the price of the soft and hardware. Despite the lipstick the developers put on the system (in the form of transparency and other fanciness) it's still very clear that the AmigaOS is a relic, a thing from the past. The application portfolio is outdated, lacking, and incapable, there's no protected memory, and many configuration panels are overwhelmingly difficult to understand and use."


Written by someone who couldn't work out what "snapshot" in the menu was for.  And he looked for a built in file manager, when anyone who's ever used an Amiga would have DOpus installed.
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2009, 03:43:26 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;516133
Written by someone who couldn't work out what "snapshot" in the menu was for.  And he looked for a built in file manager, when anyone who's ever used an Amiga would have DOpus installed.

That's the problem isn't it "anyone who's ever used an Amiga". It's the same attitude that keeps Linux from being usable by anyone on the desktop, the developers and existing user are all used too it's fault and "know" what they need to do already.

New users are scorned and told to read the forums etc. It takes someone techy enough to get past all of that and start using it, by the time you've done so, you're one of those who already knows what extras you need.
Be Positive towards the Amiga community!
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga vs. Hyperion - Any updates?
« Reply #59 from previous page: July 19, 2009, 03:45:50 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;516133
Written by someone who couldn't work out what "snapshot" in the menu was for.  And he looked for a built in file manager, when anyone who's ever used an Amiga would have DOpus installed.


Which was exactly his point... :)