real amiga vs winuae

[Karlos]

@amigaski

Given that my reference was made specifically (and unambiguously) to memory timing, to which you ridiculed:

True. Generally speaking, only hardware cares how long cycles take. If you don't refresh your DRAM at the right speed it can corrupt it's contents, for example. However, software isn't going to care if it takes 10ns to access memory or 100ns.

This is what should make people roll in laughter.  I am surprised you didn't edit it yet like many other posts.

Do I take it you now recognise and retract this embarrassing faux pas?

[ElPolloDiabl]

I am claiming that software does need to know the cycle time.  Perhaps, it's not the processor frequency if it's not targetting a particular processor but at least the cycle times for audio rates, VBIs, serial baud rates, CIA timers, etc.

Something like this do you mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAeHdieEHk

If the bottom got out of sync, what would happen? Oh noes.

[persia]

I run virtual machines all the time.  I have virtual servers working with non-virtual servers, neither i nor the users notice any difference.  All OSs are software, they behave the way they behave because of how they are written, the only difference hardware makes is in speed and video resolution.  Since the base machine of most computers running UAE is several orders of magnitude faster than the old Amiga equipment was the only issue is keeping the emulator from running too fast.

There is no difference between a UAE based Amiga and a hardware based Amiga.

[ElPolloDiabl]

Can i give an example of a game that is quite amazing and does it within an 880k floppy 'without' hitting the hardare: Midwinter.
I remember reading the back of the manual explaining its development, the programmer was expected to pull a rabbit out of a hat... and I think he did.

[Hammer]

I was saying both x86 and 680x0 are considered backward compatible.  I have been able to run all 68000 software on AGA machines except those that rely on processor frequency being fixed at 7.16Mhz.  If the frequency/timing does not matter to application (application does not use it internally as a factor), then as long as 68060 can execute the instructions in equal or better time, it's fine however it executes those instructions.  Emulate = "equal or excel" here.

Ahem... 68040.libarary...

[amigaksi]

@amigaski

Given that my reference was made specifically (and unambiguously) to memory timing, to which you ridiculed:



Do I take it you now recognise and retract this embarrassing faux pas?

No, it's still correct.  Someone can easily read it as if you are stressing first part and second part is an instance (instantiation) of the first.

[amigaksi]

I run virtual machines all the time.  I have virtual servers working with non-virtual servers, neither i nor the users notice any difference.  All OSs are software, they behave the way they behave because of how they are written, the only difference hardware makes is in speed and video resolution.  Since the base machine of most computers running UAE is several orders of magnitude faster than the old Amiga equipment was the only issue is keeping the emulator from running too fast.

There is no difference between a UAE based Amiga and a hardware based Amiga.

You only need one example of software to disprove your claim and there's more than one example already available.

[amigaksi]

So, because your software base works, all 680x0 are to be considered backwards compatible? :roflmao:

I'm starting to see the problem with your experiments here. Anything that you observe is considered the only possible outcome for any experiment.

It was based on a deductive fact like:

Fact: All men are mortal (based on logic or laws of the universe that everything goes through old age/decay and death).
Experience: All men I know are proving to be mortal.  

Fact: Motorola purposely maintained backward compatibility with 68000 according to their spec.
Experience: All 68000 software (I have tried) works fine under 68020.

People offer upgrade 68020 boards for Amiga so it's not based on some inductive knowledge.

The experience by itself doesn't allow you draw a general conclusion for everything just like running a few titles on emulator does not prove emulator is same as real amiga.

[ElPolloDiabl]

Originally Posted by amigaksi  
I was saying both x86 and 680x0 are considered backward compatible. I have been able to run all 68000 software on AGA machines except those that rely on processor frequency being fixed at 7.16Mhz. If the frequency/timing does not matter to application (application does not use it internally as a factor), then as long as 68060 can execute the instructions in equal or better time, it's fine however it executes those instructions. Emulate = "equal or excel" here.

Ahem... 68040.libarary...

Here's to crippleware...
:sealed:...:drink:

[amigaksi]

Ahem... 68040.libarary...

Never had any of those libraries in software I tested or even if it were present in some disks in some folder whether it was actively loaded and being used.  I put in a 68020 board in A2000 and didn't install any libraries-- ran the same software as before.  And some of this software is just a complete ANIM file and player software-- no 68020 or 68040.library.

[Karlos]

No, it's still correct.  Someone can easily read it as if you are stressing first part and second part is an instance (instantiation) of the first.

Dear me, is there no end to your fail?

The example given was of memory, more specifically DRAM:

From a hardware perspective, timing truly matters for the stability of the system. If you do not refresh DRAM at the recommended rate and it will eventually fail to keep its data intact, resulting in software failure (contrast this to static memory, for example). Try running 90ns rated memory at 50ns and see how stable it is over time. Not very, I think you will find.

From a software only perspective, it doesn't matter for the stability whether the DRAM is 100ns or 10ns, only the maximum speed of instruction fetch and data read/write will be affected. Try running Ed from Chip or Fast (hint NoFastMem) and see if it fails on either one after any length of time as a consequence of memory speed.

Only software too large to fit into Chip RAM (or any that requires atomic read/write to an area of memory) will fail to run. Nothing else will be affected from a stability perspective. The only effects you will observe are that running from Chip RAM your regular expression search in a large document might take longer.

So, do you still think that the RAM example is worthy of your "everybody should roll around laughing at you for this, I'm surprised you didn't edit it" remark, or would you prefer to be a man, admit you made a mistake and withdraw it?

[ElPolloDiabl]

Never had any of those libraries in software I tested or even if it were present in some disks in some folder whether it was actively loaded and being used.  I put in a 68020 board in A2000 and didn't install any libraries-- ran the same software as before.  And some of this software is just a complete ANIM file and player software-- no 68020 or 68040.library.

Weren't their (2) instructions that were dropped, but they mostly weren't being used by anything of consequence. Further instructions were also added. But what is your point? (Don't make come back there, I will stop this bus)

[Karlos]

Weren't their (2) instructions that were dropped, but they mostly weren't being used by anything of consequence. Further instructions were also added. But what is your point? (Don't make come back there, I will stop this bus)

Well, "anything of consequence" is subjective. Several years ago, I had a friend that had a surf squirrel PCMCIA interface that became very slow and CPU hungry after the installation of a 66MHz 68060 board.

After a spot of driver dissassembly he tracked it down to the use of MOVEP to transfer data to the slot. It was one of those rarely used instructions that motorola decided to throw onto the "either trap and emulate in software or crash with illegal instruction exception" pile.

He wrote his own patch in the end, replacing the block of code containing the instructions with a branch to his own code that used regular moves to emulate the operation. It made a huge difference.

[the_leander]

Fact: Motorola purposely maintained backward compatibility with 68000 according to their spec.
Experience: All 68000 software (I have tried) works fine under 68020.

As has been explained to you, this is simply not the case. That you've not used any software that is that calls on a 68000 specific function not available in later models does not change this.

People offer upgrade 68020 boards for Amiga so it's not based on some inductive knowledge.

............................................________
....................................,.-‘”...................``~.,
.............................,.-”...................................“-.,
.........................,/...............................................”:,
.....................,?......................................................\,
.................../...........................................................,}
................./......................................................,:`^`..}
.............../...................................................,:”........./
..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../
............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../
.........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`........_/
..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}
...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../
...,,,___.\`~,......“~.,....................`.....}............../
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-”
............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\
.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__
,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|..............`=~-,
.....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\
...................`=~-,,.\,...............................\
................................`:,,...........................`\..............__
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
........................................_\..........._,-%.......`\
...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................`\

The experience by itself doesn't allow you draw a general conclusion for everything just like running a few titles on emulator does not prove emulator is same as real amiga.

[amigaksi]

As has been explained to you, this is simply not the case. That you've not used any software that is that calls on a 68000 specific function not available in later models does not change this.

...

It's the same for 0x86-- there's some minor differences.  But they are still considered backward compatible NOT incompatible.  Stop with the insults-- just exposes your biased fanatical nature.

[amigaksi]

Dear me, is there no end to your fail?

The example given was of memory, more specifically DRAM:
...

Context wasn't nor the first part.

>So, do you still think that the RAM example is worthy of your "everybody should roll around laughing at you for this, I'm surprised you didn't edit it" remark, or would you prefer to be a man, admit you made a mistake and withdraw it?

Sorry, I don't edit my posts especially if they are true.