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Offline sir_inferno

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #59 from previous page: October 20, 2003, 02:19:44 PM »
piracy doesn't kill anything off. If anything, it promotes people. If i play a really good game that i downloaded something, i go and buy it! it's the same in the music buisness, if i download a good mp3, i go to the store and buy it on vinyl! it was the same with amiga, i think it was just bad luck and bad managment. C= went bankrupt just as they were doing brilliantly, but it was their fault as well fro becoming bakrup
 

Offline STUser

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2003, 06:18:38 AM »
Why, the Atari Falcon030 killed the Amiga of course.   :-D (just kidding)

Well, as someone on the ST side of the fence in the era of the great machines, but a big Amiga fan too, the thing that killed off the Amiga is the same thing that killed off the ST -- bad management.

Both Atari and Commodore were WAY ahead of their competition when the STs and Amigas shipped.  In 1985, colour graphical computers with multi-voice sound, for less than a base B&W Mac or green-screen IBM XT, were incredible things.

The stuff you could do on either was amazing.  Each had its strengths -- the Amiga had incredible sound and colour palettes, the ST had OK colour and sound and a stable hi-res display that didn't flicker at 640 x 400.

The applications for each were ASTOUNDING compared to their contemporaries.  By 1987, just two years after introduction, both systems were in their prime.  They had apps that put the PC and Mac to shame.

But then what happened?

Nothing.

Atari and Commodore both sat on their laurels and released slightly souped-up machines that didn't address market needs.  When I think back to the lost opportunities, I want to cry.

Commodore released the A500, which was a cost-reduced version of the 1000, but otherwise unchanged.

Atari released the Mega ST, which was a recased ST with a blitter and more RAM.

Meanwhile, really really cool apps on the ST moved to the PC, since Atari didn't deliver on its promises for faster hardware, math coprocessors, etc.  The AutoCAD software of today grew out of the Cyber Studio on the ST -- if Atari had kept pushing development and come out with an 020 based box (fully possible in the late 1980s) with VGA-type colour palettes at 320 x 200, it would have kept its lead in this area.

Oh, and Commodore came out with the A2000 -- more expandable, but that's about it.  And the price was sky-high!

Fast-forward to 1990 or so.  Atari had the STE which did little but add extra colours to the palette and SIMM-expandable memory (whoopdee doo!).  The A500 was still. . . the A500.

The TT030 and A3000 were both cool machines, but didn't really advance either company's lead and were poor sellers.

By the time the Falcon and A1200 shipped, both companies attention was elsewhere.  Commodore's management decided that it could make a killing selling PC clones with no effort at all -- a decision that resulted in losses in the hundreds of millions of dollars when Amiga sales were white-hot.

Atari released the Falcon030, which technically outpointed every other system out there (including the 1200, sorry Amiga partisans ;-) ), and proceeded to SCREW the remaining dealers with no advertising, as it decided to dump computers and focus on the Jaguar.

So Atari abandoned the computer biz, and Commodore allowed the Amiga biz to float with no real direction, as it kept trying over and over to make it big in the PC clone biz.

Commodore ended up getting slaughtered by Dell and Gateway and those guys in the PC biz, while the Amiga languished.  The 1200 and 4000 were both kludges rushed to market in an effort to get something, ANYTHING out -- they were NOT where Commodore's engineers wanted them to be.

AGA had been sitting in Commodore's labs for YEARS by the time it shipped in 1992.  In 1990, it was earth-shattering and would have buried Atari and Apple both.  By 1992, it was old hat -- both the Macintosh and Atari were ahead.

The 3000+ had an AT&T DSP that would have delivered a great degree of sound to the average Amiga user, had Commodore shipped it in the 1200 and the 4000.  Instead, they shipped the then-approaching-obsolete Paula, while Atari shipped the Falcon with a DSP and Apple introduced CD-quality sound as a standard feature.

The remarkable thing is that the Amiga thrived through all this inattention.  When Commodore went under, Amiga demand was at RECORD levels, despite the severe channel, advertising and product release mismanagement.  However, Commodore was so indebted and starved for cash that they couldn't produce enough machines to meet demand and turn a profit and pay the bills.  Had Commodore decided in 1990/1991 to focus on the Amiga alone and ride with it, and push forward with the move to RISC (with HP as a partner), the Amiga would have survived and thrived, and Commodore would still be in business today.

The other thing that's killed the Amiga are all the false starts post-Commodore.  Commodore and the Amiga, like it or not, are part of each other.  Without one, the other cannot survive.

I know there are new clones/machines coming out, but the ST scene saw those too, post-Atari, with C-LAB building Falcons and other companies providing super-advanced clones and new iterations of TOS, but it didn't save the ST scene because Atari's distribution, marketing and name were necessary for success.  Ditto for the Amiga.  Now that the Commodore R&D, distribution and marketing infrastructure is gone, Amiga pretty much is too.  Which is sad because the ST and Amiga were so much better than the Macintosh (let alone Windows) and I cringe to think of how much better the Amiga and ST would have done things if development had continued from the early 1990s on.
 

Offline SHADES

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2003, 07:12:45 AM »
Whos sais AMIGA is dead. Yeah, we might have had a few bankrupsies here and there, so what.

AMIGA is not dead, we continue to release upgrades to the opperating System and we have just released a new Hardware base. Next is the porting of the OS to that hardware Base. We may be bashed-up but we are far from beaten.
Long live AMIGA!
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Offline Hammer

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2003, 09:46:52 AM »
Quote

CU_AMiGA wrote:
So, what was it that sadly killed off the Amiga? Personally i think it was largely to do with piracy, but also a mix of Commodore's poor management and the way they produced machine's that haven't been updated? What does anyone else think?!

In my POV, it’s the failure of the 68K market starting from its heart i.e. Motorola. Practically most of the once dominant 68K vendors are a mere shadow of their former selves.

This is highlighted by the failures of the major 68K desktop PC vendors
1. Atari
2. Commodore
3. Apple
4. Spectrum

Secondly, most of 68K based vendors failed to follow the concept of Moore’s law (i.e. doubling of processing performance at least once a year**).
**Intel’s driving ideology…

Staying with the A500/A600/A1000/A1500/A2000 performance (for mass production solution) from 1985 to ~1991 is completely unacceptable in the long term.  

The Amiga 500/1500/2000 should have at least 68000 @16Mhz during 1989 (minimal performance improvements but for the purpose of marketing**).
 
Commodore should also marketed their Amiga models with PR rating relative to the original Amiga 1000. Similar scheme to AMD’s model reference (i.e. PR rating relative to AMD Athlon Thunderbird core @1.4Ghz). Motorola could adapt this tactic for their 68K lines i.e. referencing from 68000.

Has the PowerPC world learn from AMD yet?
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Offline darksun9210

Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2003, 11:54:24 AM »
its like wishing you could go back in time, and give the engineering team (not commodore) a shed load of 020's for A500/2000's at todays prices, 030's and simm slots for A1200s, 040/060's for A4000's with PPC upgrades available.... and PCI instead of ISA in the A4000 range. nothing super fantasitcly out of the imagination like the AAA chipset, just things that should have been done at the time (that management probably throttled) as most people know, the A3000U was for a little while the only 32bit machine out there that could handle multasking, and shipped with a version of Unix. HP and a few other vendors were interested, and asked commodore for the access rights to the kernal, and rom to be able to develope software (OS's, Apps) and hardware (PA risc chips etc.) as the architecture was open enuff (with managements consent) to be able to add things like non 680x0 processors and stuff (re cyberstormPPC / G3 / blah blah blah) and management told them to get stuffed. so i blame management for not wanting to realise what kind of product they had, and wanting to ship PC's instead.

i mean, how many pc vendors pop up and dissappear in the course of a year down your local highstreet?

A500, A600, A1200x3, A2000, A3000, A4000 & a CD32.
and probably just like the rest of you, crates full of related "treasure" for the above XD
 

Offline FiEND

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2003, 12:18:57 PM »
great thread, very interesting and brought back alot of memories.

from my point of view, being the kid with the pimples who hung out at the amiga store with a box of floppies copying shareware for hours - here is how I saw it back then.

the games were great.  yes I pirated alot of them.. er I should say copied from friends.  But I did buy some whenever I had the cash... which was alot.  Looking in my F19 Stealth box, it was $65.

So, one time I walk into the amiga store with all my savings.  I bought a printer, Kickstart 1.2, external floppy and a 1MB Supra Ram cartridge - all for my A500.  Total was $860

A while later I was at a friends house, playing with his x86 - windows 3.0 was just released and it was pretty good.  The games weren't very good.  He didn't have audio beyond bleeps and bops.  We had to unplug the mouse to connect the modem.  But there were games, he had a printer and he had OK color.. he also had a hard drive.

So I saved a bit more and walked into the Amiga store looking to buy a hard drive.   I believe it was a 40MB (same as my friends x86).  They wanted $800 for the hard drive.

Well, that was it for me.  I could buy a PC with a printer and hard drive for that price, and for a couple hundred more I could have a Adlib.  So I decided to save and buy a loaded PC.

Little did I know it would take years to save that much money.  When it happened, I got a 486 Dx2-66 Compaq with over 200MB of hard drive space, a CDrom and everything for $1200 + plus $1400 for a 17" monitor.  $300 of that was knocked off by selling my A500 to my brother.

I got my A500 back but all the software is lost.   I rescued it from the back porch where it had endured the weather for a few years.

It wouldn't boot up, just a red screen and the power light was pulsating.  Cleaned the leaves out of it, and some other crud that looked like ear wax and spun the floppy a few times and now she is slowly starting to come back to life.  Had a tear in my eye when I opened her up and saw the chip names on the motherboard that I had forgotten about.

Anyhoo, been searching ebay for workbench now for a few days, hopefully I can find it soon.   And if Amiga is coming back, I am all for it.  I am sick of windows and windows support.  I want a real machine again and just use my PC for games  :-D

how ironic.
 

Offline Acill

Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2003, 02:23:59 PM »
Well lots of great stuff so far in this thread. Its all true to some point. As for me I agree 100% it was all commodore that led to it. they did some stupifd things. The whole Piracty thing is
BS. Sure it had some part in it all, but ALL systems have it and they still do well.
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Offline downix

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2003, 04:28:14 PM »
@STUser

Ya know the guys designing the Jaguar had a desktop version of the machine up and running, but Atari management only sold them as Jaguar dev boxes.  
Try blazedmongers new Free Universal Computer kit, available with the GUI toolkit Your Own Universe, the popular IT edition, Extremely Reliable System for embedded work, Enhanced Database development and Wide Area Development system for telecommuting.
 

Offline THEWASP

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2003, 04:41:33 PM »
Did it all kill the Amiga or kill Commodore?!

2 reasons for the fall..............

#1 reason was Commodore's management. In the Vic20/C64 days and early Amiga days Commodore was out there. They had small time dealers everywhere. They would fly out to a local Commodore Club  and shake hands and show demo's. We had this happen in PoDunk Kansas and got to see the Amiga 1000 before it hit the public. Before long if you couldnt buy so many units you no longer were a dealer. Small computer shops could not afford to buy 1000 Amiga's up front. They cut credit lines and so forth and finally run the little guy out of the market.

#2 was lack of professional software. Things were still in the infant stage in the office world. The Amiga came across as a graphic/artistic computer.  There were already new things out for grinding away #'s and data which is what the majority of the business's need.  Programming company's saw what Commodore was doing in the marketing and didnt want to spend time developing software for a company in a nosedive. That made things even worse.

I'd say by about 1998 the Windows machines had probably caught up to the Amiga and its abilities. I wonder where the Amiga would be  and what it would be doing if Commodore had stayed in business.


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Offline Bobsonsirjonny

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2003, 05:12:00 PM »
Who killed it? Well Its kinda sleeping ;-)


What will kill it?

Us, unless we stop all the #### and flame.....
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Offline CU_AMiGATopic starter

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2003, 05:14:19 PM »
Quote

Bobsonsirjonny wrote:
Who killed it? Well Its kinda sleeping ;-)


What will kill it?

Us, unless we stop all the #### and flame.....


WOW! Steady Bobsonsirjonny! I wasn't trying to start anything!
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Offline mantisspider

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commodore at ceBIT
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2003, 05:46:14 PM »
I saw commodore stand at Cebit this year and they had amiga at their stand. classic amigas :-) nice

the rest was phones
 

Offline MarkTime

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2003, 08:15:48 PM »
to be frank, I think the fact that they stopped selling products...well it did more than anything to put a dent in their sales.

What the A1200 was successful, though under spec'd, and even had a 2nd go of it, when released under Escom (by then it was even hopelessly out of date and still sold).

but what came after the A1200?  to date, nothing....excluding linux ppc motherboards.

I will consider the next Amiga, to be the one that has OS 4 bundled....and I betcha, sales improve after they release a product people can buy. :-)
 

Offline Tomas

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2003, 08:30:09 PM »
mostly commodores fault...  :-(
 

Offline Jagabot

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2003, 03:34:16 AM »
I posted a short version of this in another thread (got my fingers off topic there sort of lol) but it applies totally to this thread.

What killed the Amiga:

Piracy, software availablity, users, competitor products, etc., had very little (if anything at all) to do with Commodore going belly up. Commodore priced themselves out of business by screwing over the retailers.

When they introduced the 1000 to all the main large computer dealers across the US and Canada they shot themselves in the foot on the first day. They came in showing this AMAZINGLY powerful computer to guys who were selling 8088's and 8086 based PCs. The dealers were simply blown away at what the 1000 could do in comparison to their highest priced "power house" 8086 8MHz machines. Everyone was all amazed and excited to be able to start selling these extremely powerful computers to all their business clients. Then Commodore went on to explain to them how much they'd sell for.

The dealers invariably assumed $5000 since existing 8MHz 8086 machines sold for $3000 and were nothing in comparison. But no, Commodore's master plan was to retail them for $2195 (I just went back and checked some price sheets, that's without a monitor) AND sell them to the dealers for $1995. All the dealers stopped and said "You expect me to sell this computer, amazing as it may be, to my business clients and make $200 on it? I already make a $1000 mark up selling those 8086 boxes over there. WHERE is my incentive?"  Commodore's only response was "But look how cool they are! And besides our marketing campaign hits all the magazines this month with a suggested retail of $2195. You can sell them for less if you want though!"

There was a reason there were only a handful of Amiga dealers across Canada and the USA. There was no money in selling Amigas even IF they were the most powerful computer on the planet. The money was in selling 8086 based PCs. That's why they ended up in every office and not Amigas. BOTH systems had WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 written for them in 1985-86, BOTH systems had equal amounts of business software initially. But who in their right mind would steer a client to a machine they'd make $200 instead of $1000 off of?

Commodore continued this rediculous line of price fixing on every single product line they came out with. When they came out with the A3000, the first really slick business looking Amiga, one that didnt look "like a toy" lots of us in Amiga retail thought it was the second coming and Amigas would start becoming mainstream. Especially so when Commodore initially announced the retail price of $2995 with a dealer cost of $2400 (wow a retailer could finally make $500 off of one of these things!). But, 3 days later the largest 2 retailers in Canada and the USA were selling them for $2595 and 3 days after that Commodore set the new 3000 retail price at $2595 with a dealer cost fo $2485. (Somebody at Commodore decided that the way to get lots of Amigas out there was to lower the retail price, but not lower the cost price)  WTF, not only did they raise the retailers cost, now retailers were expected to make $110 selling a $2500 item when they could make $900-$1500 selling a $3000 386 SX12? (Yes, margins on pc's used to be 30% to 50% back in the day...)

That is how Commodore did business, that's why they don't exist anymore. The single largest collection of marketing retards on the planet worked there, it was the most amazing group of inept monkies I and every Amiga retailer across North America have ever met.  :-)

If the PC retailers had had even a tiny bit of incentive (ie: the ability to make any money selling an Amiga instead of a PC) that's what everyone would be using today, not clones... No money for the dealers meant no reason to tell businesses and even home users (wasn't too many pc users in the home back then) about the Amiga. No sir, you will really love this 386-SX16 here, yes it's blistering fast, and just look at that beautiful 64 color CGA screen!
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Offline Methuselas

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Re: What killed off the Amiga?
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2003, 05:22:34 AM »
I have no comment on the subject. I find no reason to kick a dead dog, when we all know it was ignorance, greed, narrowmindedness and the simple fact that they didn't care to support the amiga.

In Commodore's mind, the Amiga had already served its purpose...to get them in the PC market, where they failed miserably. :-(

I still can't help but laugh about the PCjr, though. What a piece of sh!t.
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