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AuthorTopic: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz  (Read 6290 times)

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Offline Floid

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2004, 01:49:37 AM »
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Though considering that this is the first I've heard of any PPC bug, and reports about flaws with Intel chips have been released consistently for years now, I think the PPC still has the better track record.
Ironically, this same sort of clock-dependent bug bit back when Motorola approached the 500MHz barrier.  Either PowerPC vendors aren't vetting their designs properly, or more likely, they've just been forced to 'paper-launch' much earlier than x86 vendors have.

Meanwhile, didn't Intel have to recall their first batch of GHz P4s after squeezing them out under similar pressure?  (All proverbial ten they shipped to be able to claim they got there on time?)

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Not to mention better power consumption and better instruction efficiency per cycle.
This has changed somewhat with the 970/"G5," especially as you throw things like improved x86 branch-prediction into the mix.  Still a very nice (and rather competetive) line of CPUs, when they work.
 

Offline Hammer

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2004, 02:02:56 AM »
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Meanwhile, didn't Intel have to recall their first batch of GHz P4s after squeezing them out under similar pressure? (All proverbial ten they shipped to be able to claim they got there on time?)

IF they replace the flawed products then it’s almost a no issue. Code substituting is required IF IBM intends to transfer the (IBM's own making) bug fixing duties to the software vendors.

A product replacement/micro-coding updates negates that need for third party software vendors to patch their software.

Early Intel Pentium III @1.13Ghz flaws only effects LinuxX86 (an example) but they run reasonably fine with Windows.  Intel could have told those Linux users to do a code substitute trick, but the LinuxX86 markets demands product replacement and they got it.
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Offline KennyR

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2004, 02:26:10 AM »
Quote
bhogget wrote:
Some vendors are complete morons. They go by the principle that if the CPU comes with a heatsink and fan, that should solve any overheating problems.


Not morons, just not following the times. Just a few years ago a heatsink and fan was enough for any tower system; just the flow of air caused by the PSU was enough to keep the insides of the case cool enough. And I can't say I blame them either: the heat of CPUs is fast reaching the point of the utterly ridiculous. In a few years more will vendors be morons because they don't supply the correct liquid freon coolant to shift 100+ watts of pure wasted heat energy out of the tower?
 

Offline Hammer

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2004, 02:37:15 AM »
@KennyR  

CPU vendors have to minimise the cause of heat generation by employing technologies such as Low-K Black Diamond i.e. heat is generated due to electron leakage.

Intel is already at +6Ghz on some section of the PIV chip.
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Offline QuikSanz

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2004, 02:43:32 AM »
@ KennyR,

"In a few years more will vendors be morons because they don't supply the correct liquid freon coolant to shift 100+ watts of pure wasted heat energy out of the tower?"

Like I need another heater in So. California or can afford the waste.

Chris
 

Offline minator

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2004, 02:52:17 AM »
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Early Intel Pentium III @1.13Ghz flaws only effects LinuxX86 (an example) but they run reasonably fine with Windows. Intel could have told those Linux users to do a code substitute trick, but the LinuxX86 markets demands product replacement and they got it.


No, that's how the bug was discovered, at that time Linux was an inperceptable part of the market.  However according to an on-line news site the kernel would not compile.  To Intel who had had a previous perfect record (apart from the P5 bug) this was unacceptable, they recalled the CPU.  It was only later re-introduced.

I expect IBM will have to pay out for this as well but you just won't hear about it as it's primarily in the embedded world.
 

Offline KennyR

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2004, 03:13:28 AM »
Quote
Hammer wrote:
CPU vendors have to minimise the cause of heat generation by employing technologies such as Low-K Black Diamond i.e. heat is generated due to electron leakage.


But do you really believe they'll scale down CPUs for less heat when they dump silicon for diamond? The way markets work, they won't: they'll keep the current cooler/fan/tower cooling model and simply use the diamond semiconductor for improved performance.

Which is a pity...because I'm beginning to look for a new x86 machine to replace my ancient Cyrix P200, and so far none I've spotted have an acceptable performance/heat ratio.
 

Offline SHADES

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2004, 05:03:13 AM »
Ewww. This is going to hurt IBM in sales and status. I hope they fix it.
Imagine if it was an Intel bug and not IBM. How many of us would be slamming the "I told u they were crap" line.
It's not the question, that is the problem, it is the problem, that is the question.
 

Offline Hammer

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2004, 06:41:41 AM »
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To Intel who had had a previous perfect record (apart from the P5 bug) this was unacceptable,

In regards to "previous perfect record", note the micro-code updates and secondary purpose of micro-coding engine in P6 product lines. I still have those micro-code [d]update[/d] patches with my PC-Chips747 CD.

Secondly, Intel has direct competitive pressures coming from AMD i.e. it looks bad on them when they have issues with Linux. During that time Intel was fighting a rear guard action (mindshare). Except from AMD, not one company has the power to affect Intel’s bread and butter(it's core biz) e.g. the iAMD64 extensions on IA-32.  
 
These pressures involve reliability, legacy running (without user intervention code substitutions) and clock speed (the design of Pentium IV** is a response for AMD's K7 clockspeed romp).

My statement on "LinuxX86 markets demands product replacement and they got it." is due to implied market pressure.

**AMD changes the rules of engagement with XP and K8.
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Offline Hammer

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2004, 06:58:00 AM »
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But do you really believe they'll scale down CPUs for less heat when they dump silicon for diamond?

Refer to the principle of heat generation in fusing wires to each end of a battery i.e. the wire gets hotter. The electron leakage is basically runs on the similar principle.
Low-K Black Diamond promotes lower consumption, hence less heat generation.

Low-K Black Diamond dielectric is already in use on
1. AMD's K8 @90 nm.
2. ATI's DX9 VPU e.g. ATI Radeon 9600.  

Note why ATI’s VPU is relatively cooler than their NV counterpart i.e. both has similar transistor count and clockspeeds. This is where AMD and IBM differ in 90nm migration.

Black Diamond Low k is product of Applied Materials Inc.

Reference
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/sigdev.asp?Symbol=TSM

"Applied Materials' Black Diamond low-k dielectric to provide faster performance and lower power consumption."

Both IBM (PPC970 90 nm) and Intel are on SS (Strain Silicon) camp.
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SSD: 512 GB Samsung 840
 

Offline Hammer

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2004, 07:37:08 AM »
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Which is a pity...because I'm beginning to look for a new x86 machine to replace my ancient Cyrix P200, and so far none I've spotted have an acceptable performance/heat ratio.

Atm, I don't have specific access to Cyrix P200's Amp and voltages values for comment.

I recall, Cyrix M II @300MHz's max power is at ~24W , 3.0Volts, 8Amp. 16Watt grade Barton(uPGA)(laptop) or Pentium M(laptop) or Apple iBook can this easily.

[edit]
Cyrix
6x86 PR200+ (150MHz),20.77W, 25.20W(Max power)
6x86L PR200+ (150MHz), 14.28W, 17.69W(Max power)
6x86MX PR200 (166MHz),11.50W, 19.10W(Max power)

All easy targets for X86 mobile/PPC32 processor (not including desktop replacement processors).
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RAM: 16 GB PC3-12800 (DDR3-1600)
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Offline bhoggett

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2004, 10:19:33 AM »
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KennyR wrote:
Not morons, just not following the times.

Vendors who don't follow the times are morons. Why should anyone buy anything from a jackass who doesn't know what he's doing?

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Just a few years ago a heatsink and fan was enough for any tower system; just the flow of air caused by the PSU was enough to keep the insides of the case cool enough.

Go back far enough and you didn't even really need a heatsink and fan on your CPU. Then again, the CPU wasn't very capable either.

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And I can't say I blame them either: the heat of CPUs is fast reaching the point of the utterly ridiculous. In a few years more will vendors be morons because they don't supply the correct liquid freon coolant to shift 100+ watts of pure wasted heat energy out of the tower?

First of all, a large percentage of the extra heat comes from components other than the CPU. GPUs, motherboards and hard drives all generate more heat now than they used to. They all use more power, so the PSU generates more heat too, not all of which is blown out of the back.

As it happens, the technology for active cooling of CPUs has improved a great deal: bigger and more heat conductive heat sinks, bigger and quieter fans, etc. What this needs is unrestricted airflow in cases, and this is where the vendors cut corners. They like to use smaller cases, so they cram them more, but they don't take care to make sure there are no restrictions to airflow. There is little excuse for not using tubular cables any more, and for not tidying up the cabling in such a way that it does not restrict airflow. All done to squeeze that little bit of extra profit in a cut-throat market.

The PPC line has been the cooler one so far, though since the rest of the components in the case still use more power than old systems the advantage is relative.

I'll grant you heat generation has become silly these days, but the CPU is only one factor in this, as it is only one factor in the noise generation produced by cooling systems.

I won't compare it to your Cyrix because quite honestly none of my software would even run on that CPU any more.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline Floid

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2004, 12:03:17 PM »
Quote
Quote
But do you really believe they'll scale down CPUs for less heat when they dump silicon for diamond?
Refer to the principle of heat generation in fusing wires to each end of a battery i.e. the wire gets hotter. The electron leakage is basically runs on the similar principle.
Low-K Black Diamond promotes lower consumption, hence less heat generation.
Lest anyone be misled, note that 'Black Diamond' is not a diamond substrate itself, but rather a preparation of "CVD carbon-doped oxides."

http://www.chipworks.com/chipnews/2002_i02/interconnect_2.htm

There's some company that's supposedly found the trick to growing vapor-deposited diamond crystals (talking literal bricks, here) at intense purity and cost comparable to Si.  Intel were said to have shot them down when they made their pitch, betting on Si processes to continue to scale for the forseeable future.  ("Oops?")

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html

...

Those Cyrixen were quite toasty for their performance at the time, probably owing to both process issues and decisions of design.  (Similarly, has there ever been a K7 chip that honors HLT in the manner previously expected?)

Scary numbers from the slot CPU era:
http://grassomusic.de/english/amdk7.htm
(In editing for width, I note that Xoops takes poorly to links containing '?' options.)

...

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Ewww. This is going to hurt IBM in sales and status. I hope they fix it.
Imagine if it was an Intel bug and not IBM. How many of us would be slamming the "I told u they were crap" line.
I think everyone hopes they'll fix it, IBM included.  However, while it certainly won't *grow* sales... you think PPC customers have ever really had a choice? ;-)  (Seriously, it sounds like the post-spinoff Freescale just might warm up the competition, but if what you want is a GHz *G3,* it's not like there's really a second source.)  Meanwhile, I'm lost as to how many units they actually sold before this discovery, and bugs in paper launches don't effect reality much.

...

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As it happens, the technology for active cooling of CPUs has improved a great deal: bigger and more heat conductive heat sinks, bigger and quieter fans, etc. What this needs is unrestricted airflow in cases, and this is where the vendors cut corners. They like to use smaller cases, so they cram them more, but they don't take care to make sure there are no restrictions to airflow.
Well, you should be enamored with BTX, then, and even I'll give Intel some credit for flipping PCI and AGP dust-collecting-side up.

The P4 does remain in the unenviable position of being the first line to throttle for protection under certified conditions.  (I'd say Prescott in specific, but I can't remember if this was first noticed on one or a late-model Northwood?)

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There is little excuse for not using tubular cables any more,
Except that most rounded cables are produced by vendors without a single EE on staff, and some actually show a negligible but worrying (as regards integrity) performance hit in practice.  Luckily, the SATA/SAS phy rather solves for this anyway.

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[...] and for not tidying up the cabling in such a way that it does not restrict airflow. All done to squeeze that little bit of extra profit in a cut-throat market.
Or to provide what consumers want, in which case the world might actually have some demand for (non-watercooled) PPCs.

Actually, it'd be interesting to know whether mainboard draws have dropped significantly on K8 designs; you lose a major portion of one big hot chip, and some of the transistor count that went with it... but, in early designs, do up the number of discrete bridge ICs on board.
 

Offline bhoggett

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2004, 12:46:01 PM »
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Except that most rounded cables are produced by vendors without a single EE on staff, and some actually show a negligible but worrying (as regards integrity) performance hit in practice.

Agreed, but if you're really keen on performance you wouldn't be using ATA drives any more.

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Luckily, the SATA/SAS phy rather solves for this anyway.

It does. I just don't see every vendor adopting them wholesale just yet. No doubt that will change fairly soon. as there's no significant cost difference, unlike SCSI.

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Or to provide what consumers want, in which case the world might actually have some demand for (non-watercooled) PPCs.

Except that consumers want systems which are useful to them, and for the time being PPC systems are of limited use. With this in mind, I doubt there is a massive consumer demand for PPC systems outside Mac and Amiga circles, and I don't see that changing much any time soon. Even Linux users will get more out of x86 and its 64-bit siblings than they will out of PPC systems.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline KennyR

Re: IBM Power PC 1GHz chip only runs properly at 933MHz
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2004, 04:14:12 PM »
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bhogget wrote:
I'll grant you heat generation has become silly these days, but the CPU is only one factor in this, as it is only one factor in the noise generation produced by cooling systems.

I won't compare it to your Cyrix because quite honestly none of my software would even run on that CPU any more.


I'd just be happy if I could find a x86 system with the same performance and heat output of this 750GX. The VIA CPUs aren't much more powerful than my Cyrix (even at 800MHz!), and all desktop CPUs are FAR too hot and noisy. I'll be using my Cyrix until one appears, or until the Cyrix dies. Which as you can imagine does rather limit my choice of software...