Pegasos running native OS4 apps?

[Cymric]

That's some pirate group if they can modify a ROM... Seriously, how come that program has been up there for months? You'd have thought someone has had it removed, citing DMCA law and what not.

I'm sure that any determined cracker can break the copy protection mechanisms present inside any given computer---think of all those nice modchips available for game consoles. The question is, as always: is the way to crack the system difficult and expensive enough as to scare off sufficient amounts of would-be-pirates?

[zacman]

>That's some pirate group if they can modify a ROM.

Heh. Ok you got me

[Madgun68]

That's some pirate group if they can modify a ROM... Seriously, how come that program has been up there for months? You'd have thought someone has had it removed, citing DMCA law and what not.

Remember that ROM means READ Only Memory. Just look at the kickstart. You can save that off to disk and even modify it or softkick it. Same deal applies here.. They could modify OS4 to load the rom image from disk and access it from ram.

As far as the DMCA goes.. That's US law. Aminet isn't limited to US servers you know.

I'm sure that any determined cracker can break the copy protection mechanisms present inside any given computer---think of all those nice modchips available for game consoles. The question is, as always: is the way to crack the system difficult and expensive enough as to scare off sufficient amounts of would-be-pirates?

Of course. But see my earlier argument about AOS4/Pegasos (or any other 3rd part PPC board.)

[Skyraker]

The way I look at it is this, you had your choice, you bought a Pegasos for whatever reason, and now you're bleating because you can't run OS4.

You pays your money, you should have waited.

I'm not moaning because I can't run OSx on this Wintel box or on a Miggy one...

Some of the Mos crowd (not all) have gone on and on and bloody on about how bad OS4 is going to be and how smashing, great , super MOS is.... and now theyre crying foul play because they can't run OS4.

Stick with Morphos guys, it's much better, you've been telling us that for years.

If it wasn't so pathetic it would be funny.

[bhoggett]

@Madgun68

Wow. I thought before that seeing AmigaOS 4 on the Pegasos 2 might be a possibility but after this thread appeared, I consider it highly unlikely.

I think you're right. It would go against Amiga Inc's wishes and against Eyetech's interests.

Not that I ever thought it was seriously on the cards anyway. Too many huge egos would have to back down for it to happen.

I doubt at this point Eyetech have sold any boards not slated to run AmigaOS 4. This guarantees that every one that has sold will be running a legit copy of AOS 4.

True. It doesn't guarantee a big number of sales though, nor is there good reason to assume that the majority of Eyetech's industrial customers will be using OS4, even if they're entitled to it.

The moment any Pegasos machine is sold with AOS 4, the piracy door is wide open.

The piracy door is already wide open. The dongle, external or in ROM, is just a paper shield.

In fact, the parties are creating their own problem rather than combating it. There must be plenty of people out there who would like to have access to OS4 and MOS on the same system, for a variety of reasons. However, there are no realistic prospects of this being possible legally in the foreseaable future, so a fertile ground for piracy of either or both products is being created right there.

Hardware dongles don't work. They didn't work 20 years ago and they don't work now. It's amazing at times what lengths pirates will go to so they don't have to pay for something. You might not like hearing this, but it's a fact.

It's not so much avoiding to pay for something as it is the culture of cracking and releasing. It's the same culture that was there when the Amiga was in the big time, and which is mostly concentrated on Windows these days. The faces may change, but the culture won't, because those trying to fight it don't understand their enemy.

I doubt any reseller is going to pay for a license for a machine they sell but don't make. They'd have to pay for the license and for the development of whatever dongle would be used. Honestly, what Amiga reseller has money to burn for stuff like this these days?

Don't forget they'd have to provide first-line problem diagnosis too, which involves considerable expense and training in someone else's product.

It ain't gonna happen.

And if Amiga Inc have any say in who does and does not get a license, forget Genesi ever attaining one.

True, but then I consider Amiga Inc an irrelevance now (and I'm being kind).

[Kronos]

@Skyraker

Who is "crying foul play" here??

Noticed that this threat was started by someone from the red side of the
fence ? Just like all the other allmost identical threats in the last ~15 months ?

Noticed that those from the blue side only stated that Hyperion can port their
OS if they want ?

Noticed that those demanding OS4 for the Peg are mostly "red", and some neutrals ?


I can tell, we at the blue side have very little interest in OS4, except maybe as
a running gag ......

/me waits till someone calls him "insecure" or other bullcrap

[meerschaum]

the rom wont stop anything and they KNOW it wont, thats why I view it more as a control mechanism for legitimate distrobution then as a way to keep pirates at bay, think about it! has there EVER been any dongle that HASNT been broken?, I mean dongled by very rich companies, copy protection that MICROSOFT works on with all their billions, and the recording industry... dongles dont work, they are there more as a way to control the legitimate side of things than anything else.

[Skyraker]

@Coco

I'm not commenting on the original thread, this went waaaaay off topic half way thorugh.. i'm refering to the ones (you know who you are) whingeing about licences and how unfair eveything is.

[Dan]

If you want AOS4 buy an AmigaOne
If you want MorphOS buy a Pegasos
If you want AROS buy a  platform with a port available,  x86 at the moment
If you just want to run systemfriendly programs at faster than m68k speed NOW:run UAE or Amithlon on x86, buy a Pegasos IN THE FUTURE: A1 with AOS4 is another option

And finally
If you want Amiga buy an real Amiga with customchips and m68k :-)

It´s as simple as that :-D

Don´t you remmeber what got us in this situation( being without modern machines and a modern os) from the start?
For me AOS or MOS will only be a temporary solution until I can get a fast and integrated emulation for m68k-apps in AROS. When that comes( in 10years time or so :-) ) then both MOS and AOS will be facing a quick  death.   :-D

[Madgun68]

@Skyraker

This conversation was pretty civil until you showed up throwing accusations around. I don't give a #hi# what I happen to purchase, I'm still entitled to an opinion and I'm going to express it if I so choose.

Furthermore, these people that are "crying foul" as you put it are important because they are still potential customers. That's important here because Hyperion isn't a charity.

Let's put this another way: IF.. and I state IF.. Hyperion has $100k wrapped up in AOS4 development (and it could be higher, who knows) and they receive $50 in pure profit with each sale of AOS4, they need to sell 2,000 copies before they even break even. That's if they even receive $50 in profit off each sale.

How much they earn off AOS is going to decide whether or not they're willing to stick with it past their current obligations. Are you positive that with the sales from the classic machines and what Eyetech manages to sell they're going to be happy with the results? Can you guarantee them this in writing?

I would think that more potential earnings would be considered a good thing. The only thing we're really discussing here is that, in fairness, the licensing sucks. (Back to the part about opinions.)

[Cymric]

Madgun68 wrote:
Remember that ROM means READ Only Memory. Just look at the kickstart. You can save that off to disk and even modify it or softkick it. Same deal applies here.. They could modify OS4 to load the rom image from disk and access it from ram.

True, but the original thread implied that the ROM itself was modified. I'd certainly be impressed by that feat of hackery :-D.

Apart from that, I seriously wonder about the feasibility of softkicking these modern machines. We're talking the boot ROM here. That is not the same as the Kickstart ROM. Besides which, the old Amigas allowed softkicking thanks to continuous RAM refresh and resident memory areas, the Cold-, Cool- and WarmCapture-offsets deep in ExecBase, and a very interesting library call called SetFunction(). I have strong suspicions all this functionality has been removed. I would have, if I were to develop AmigaOS 4.

No, methinks the best way would be to extract the code in the boot ROM, modify it, burn it back onto an EEPROM, and bypass the protections that way. (Provided the EEPROM is electrically compatible too!) Far too much hassle for the casual user, in any case. (There was a thread about someone ripping the ROM's socket from the motherboard not too long ago.) Then I also suspect that it will not be easy to boot your illegally acquired machine-readable, deprotected version of AmigaOS 4, as it assumes either a forgiving boot ROM, or that you are already running some OS. And that brings up the softkicking problems again. Double if the machine has set up MMU tables.

Doable, yes. Easy, no.

As far as the DMCA goes.. That's US law. Aminet isn't limited to US servers you know.

Your point...? :-D

[Skyraker]

@Madgun

Fair enough, but the fact remains that some of those who now want OS4 for the Pegasos are the same who were knocking it at every opportunity beforehand.

And correct me if i'm wrong but the current userbase is only 600, what percentage of these will buy OS4 do you think.

Contrary to what you might believe, I actually don't have a problem with a Pegasos port, what I do think is a little out of order are users who bought Genesi's hardware feeling as though they have a God given right to an OS4 port.

[bhoggett]

@Cymric

The fact that it is the boot ROM is irrelevant. The protection code is added to the ROM, but it's not actually part of the boot software (which Hyperion do not own, I believe). As such, you can load the protection code from wherever it should be, be that a ROM, an external dongle or perhaps... a file? It's not likely to be that hard to then persuade the OS that it's reading the code from ROM address space and not standard memory.

All right, that's a simplification, but the fact remains that the ROM protection will prove to be as efective a protection as a fishnet umbrella in a rainstorm.

[meerschaum]

I personally probably would not buy OS4, but I dont think its a bad idea to have it on Pegasos, people act as though pegasos is such a renegade, OS4 on Peg might serv to re-unite the community somewhat?.

[Skyraker]

If Genesi need a license from Amiga inc to get OS4 ported to the Peg, isn't suing them in a rather public manner something of a retrograde step?

[T_Bone]

Skyraker wrote:
If Genesi need a license from Amiga inc to get OS4 ported to the Peg, isn't suing them in a rather public manner something of a retrograde step?

Why would Genesi need to license it? They just manufacture the board. Couldn't Some third party have genesi build the boards, slap a AmigaOne badge on it and resell it themselves licensed as an AmigaOne? (Like Eyetech does)

That should be possible, but Amiga Inc is ignoring requests to do this, Seehund was right on the money about the license scheme limiting options once more boards appear.