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Author Topic: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?  (Read 22364 times)

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Offline cgutjahr

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #89 from previous page: October 13, 2003, 05:00:39 PM »
@Bill Hoggett:

Quote

- They would have to pay a license fee, which even when passed onto customers, would hurt their bottom line.

You are assuming that they would have to pay a license fee, I doubt that you know more about that issue than Rogue. They could aswell have to guarantee a minimum amount of sales to Hyperion (as in: "you want OS4 on your hardware? you'll have to buy XX copies in advance").

And even if they have to pay a license fee: How is paying a license fee any different than paying your own programmers to adopt OS4 to your hardware ("Drivers should be supplied by the hardware manufacturer")?

Quote

- They would have to give Hyperion detailed schematics of their hardware.

And that's a bad thing because...? They certainly would want to have Linux running on their hardware (PPC hardware not running Linux wouldn't run much software at all), so their hardware docs wouldn't be the biggest secret anyway. And there's that thing called "NDA" - you make it sound as if they would have to disclose important business secrets to the whole world.

Quote

- They would have to manage first-line support for any problems on their system, including software they have no involvement in. This would include training staff for the purpose.

Are you suggesting that a manufacturer should port OS4 to his own hardware ("Drivers should be supplied by the hardware manufacturer") without training his support staff? That idea sounds scary to me.

And as far as I can tell, everybody who sells desktop computers to end users manages first-line support on its own, regardless of the operating system running on the hardware.

Quote

- They would have to take on the burden of administrating their customers as two distinct groups, meaning they would be administering two products instead of one.

Right. So a manufacturer (or a dealer or whoever else may apply for a license) does the maths and either comes to the conclusion that it's worth the effort (and affiliated risks) or it isn't.

Let's assume there would be two or three hardware platforms (in addition to the A1) that would be capable of running OS4. Which scenario is more likely to get OS4 ported to all of them:

1. Hyperion (a company with three full-time employees and less money in its bank account than Amiga Inc.) ports OS4 to all of them (financing the port upfront, taking all the financial risks involved with porting the OS), handles end-user support for all five platforms (Classic Amiga + A1 + 3) and still continues to develop new improved versions of AmigaOS.

2. Porting OS4 to each platform is supported - both financially (e.g. by guarateeing a certain amount of sales to Hyperion) and in terms of marketing and end user support - by a third party.

Quote

- They would gain an unproven OS based on IP whose future is uncertain.

Sigh. If it's doomed anyway, why should anybody (including Hyperion) bother about porting it to new hardware?

That's like saying: "Only fools would mess with that crap. Hyperion are fools, that's why they are the only logical choice."

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- They would gain a couple of hundred extra customers at best.

I guess every remaining Amiga dealer would be very happy about "a couple of hundred extra customers at best".

And you're completely ignoring the fact that both Alan Redhouse and Ben Hermans are pretty busy hyping AmigaOS' appeal to the B2B market (embedded appliances, info terminals etc.).
 

Offline downix

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2003, 05:05:40 PM »
@IonDeluxe

It is their business model, correct.  But that model has been shown to be flawed in the past.  (see BeInc's early mis-steps in licensing their OS as discussed in the recent Haynie interview)

Blaming Genesi for AInc's flawed business tactics is akin to blaming Met@box for Be going under.
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Offline meerschaum

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #91 on: October 13, 2003, 05:27:22 PM »
Rogue

to me you seem like an OK guy caught up in a tangled web of sh*t, I'd like to see your OS make its way onto Pegasos but I dont know if that will ever happen and to be honest about the license questions? I dont think you answered very much (not your fault)
 

Offline Argo

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #92 on: October 13, 2003, 06:55:07 PM »
I'll reply to abunch of this tonight, but til then...

Okay, So how is Hyperion suppost to make money on OS4 if licencing is bad. Is all licencing bad? If so, then alot of you have trouble just buying anything...
 

Offline meerschaum

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #93 on: October 13, 2003, 07:10:15 PM »
a license isnt bad per-se, but this license isnt public information we call look at, its murkey waters... not clear to anyone what the license stipulates and with Amiga.inc's past history? I wouldnt trust it.
 

Offline downix

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2003, 07:14:27 PM »
@Argo

Same way QNX does:  license to end-providors, *not* to solution-providor.  So, say Mr. Hardware, for example, wants to sell Pegasos w/ AmigaOS 4.  Mr. hardware signs up for the license, and sells machines w/ AOS4 on them.  Or to end-users, say meers above wants AOS4 on his Peggy, he pays for a copy, gets the EULA, the USB port dongle which he plugs into one of his USB ports, and goes on his merry way.  In other words, the same way Microsoft, QNX, LynxOS, even AT&T handle licensing to incredible sucess.  By forcing the licensing onto the manufacturers, AInc cripples their availible marketplace, as manufacturers have, historically, balked at any licensing of their product.  (Might I remind everyone of the backlash against the Apple $1 licensing fee for Firewire?)
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Offline meerschaum

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2003, 07:15:58 PM »
downix I agree entirely, good sensible answer there!
 

Offline Seehund

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2003, 07:16:16 PM »
Quote

Rassilon wrote:

The majority of people wanting to buy OS4 will be in three camps:

1) Blizzard users - they will buy the appropriate upgrade pack.
2) Cyberstorm users - they will buy the appropriate upgrade pack.
3)People wanting to buy newer/faster Amiga's - Currently their only option is an Eyetech AmigaOne.


Slight correction; the people above are the only people that are allowed to buy AmigaOS4. Replace "Eyetech AmigaOne" with "whatever hardware that is or will be licensed", it's still just as abysmal.
That's us hardcore AmigaOS nuts. That "market" alone doesn't make it worth bothering.

Quote

As software developers in a small market its not profitable for Hyperion to write OS4 so that it runs on every PPC mobo out there. So what did they do? They decided to target OS4 for specific mobo's.


Which is quite natural and obvious. No software developer no matter their size supports all hardware...

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a compulsory licensing scheme for third party hardware. For all future versions of AmigaOS. If AmigaOS runs on hardware X, we AmigaOS users in contrast to everybody else may not buy this hardware X (which has nothing to do with AInc or AmigaOS) from anyone we like, in any way we like, new or used. Furthermore we may only buy AmigaOS in conjunction with the purchase of one piece of hardware X from this/these licensed dealer(s).

This has nothing to do with the technical issue "with which hardware is this OS compatible?" That should be a simple question of whether there are drivers for the hardware - either by Hyperion or a third party - and whether AInc says that "AmigaOS is compatible with this hardware". Most software companies no matter how small/insignificant/poor seem to manage that simple task just fine.

Trying to substitute a simple hardware compatibility list with restrictions on whom your customers are allowed to buy their hardware from does not make sense. It's counterproductive. It makes the OS (the product that's supposed to be sold) less attractive. It prevents porting to more hardware from ever happening.

Quote

  But how do you decide which ones?

..... by running a certification process.


Yes, but again that's not what we're talking about. A certification process is allegedly supposed to be one part of the whole licensing lunacy, and if we didn't know it before, it has been proven continuously since it was all announced just how worthless, or inexistent, that process has been. There can be certification without telling customers from whom they're allowed to buy their hardware, that they're not allowed to by the exact same hardware from any vendor they prefer. Hardware is not an AInc product.

Quote

If a manufacturers wants OS4 to run on their board they approach Amiga Inc for certification.


Generally, manufacturers couldn't care less about AmigaOS, no matter how much we wish things would be otherwise. However, if AmigaOS was allowed to be a player on the manufacturer's normal playing field, together with other OSes, it could potentially generate extra hardware sales without any licensing/bundling/software support/market division hassles. Like other OSes.

It's nuts to make everything dependent on the hardware market's interest in licensing (with all that involves and with the absence of licensee benefits compared to an open market) for ever even seeing AmigaOS ported to a piece of hardware and for sale.

I've said it before, that if someone would be interested in certification or trademark licensing, like Eyetech today, then I think it would be great. Obviously there are some customers who even give a damn about things like that. But this simply cannot be restricted to be the only venue of development and sales for AmigaOS!

To stick more specifically to the topic of this thread: Say some dealer got a license to sell Pegasoses with AmigaOS. Yay! He gets the right to call it "AmigaPeg" or something. Now, the problem and question remains, why should AmigaOS users/customers only be allowed to buy their Pegasoses from this dealer? Why should AmigaOS lose the opportunity for marketshare among those who bought or will buy their Pegasoses elsewhere?

The same of course goes for Macs, Terons and whatever you could think of. The "licensed" and the "normal" hardware are exactly the same, there are no more Amigas. But we would only be allowed to access a subset of the market, divided by something that doesn't need to be there and can only be removed by those who put it there with a stroke of the pen.

Quote

Its encomies of scale really, get it to run on a small selection of baords first, and then when it has proven (hopefully) a success other manufacturers may want it to run on their mobo's.


Very true, but even if AmigaOS would become The Dominant Player on the PPC market (heh), it still would be a crazy idea to reject hardware and vendor options solely on the grounds of a trademark licensing situation. Keep the doors open, and then there might be growth in the first place, and maybe even interest in licenses (however not compulsory ones, from a customer/user perspective). I think hardware targets for porting should be chosen on criterias that actually benefits and matters to us customers and AmigaOS's sales and future, like ease of porting, features, availability, price, current market penetration et c.
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Offline Seehund

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2003, 07:24:08 PM »
Quote

_PAB_ wrote:
But how can you assure the sales of OS4 on Pegasos if there is no copy-protection mechanism like on AmigaOne ?


How, pray tell, are larger OS4 sales assured when it can only be bought bundled with hardware from a particular dealer, compared to the same sales plus sales of separately available shrinkwrapped (and copy protected damnit, let's drop the "anti-piracy" crap once and for all, please) OS4 copies?

Separate sales for Pegasoses, or whatever hardware, are not assured. Neither are bundled sales. Both combined at least gives better chances.
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Offline Rassilon

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2003, 07:30:20 PM »
@Downix

I hate you break it to you, but thats exactly how the licensing/certificating scheme can work. Ben Hermans has said so on this very forum (If only I could manage to find his post)

Rassilon
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Offline Seehund

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2003, 07:31:55 PM »
@Downix:

Ex-friggin'-actly! :)

Sell licenses to your heart's content.

Just don't put the sales and the future of your product on the line, making yourself dependant on license sales to an independent market that's not interested.
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Offline Seehund

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2003, 07:35:20 PM »
Quote

Rassilon wrote:

I hate you break it to you, but thats exactly how the licensing/certificating scheme can work. Ben Hermans has said so on this very forum (If only I could manage to find his post)


No. No end-user is allowed to buy AmigaOS (in other words, an end-user license) separate from licensed hardware. The AmigaOS customer/user (you and me) is restricted to and depending on the existence of licensed vendors and licensed hardware.
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Offline downix

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2003, 07:38:53 PM »
@Rassilon

So then licensing to Genesi is not necessary, since then licensing would be done to either resellers or to end users.  So my whole point stands, that Genesi is not the one blocking the port of AOS4 to the Pegasos platform.
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Offline zacman

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2003, 07:47:43 PM »
>But how can you assure the sales of OS4 on
>Pegasos if there is no copy-protection mechanism
>like on AmigaOne ?

Seriously, how can you assure it on the AmigaOne?

The AmigaOne is now available for almost a year
with this copy protection ROM and there is still no
OS4.

But what is there already for several months is a
detailed description and program on Aminet by
Digital Corruption to readout and modify the
AmigaOne copy protection ROM. So I assume that
those pirates already have cracked the copy
protection mechanism and can therefor tune a
LinuxOne into an AmigaOne easily.

So the copyright protection has already been
cracked even before the actual product using it is
out.
 

Offline Madgun68

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2003, 08:02:35 PM »
Wow. I thought before that seeing AmigaOS 4 on the Pegasos 2 might be a possibility but after this thread appeared, I consider it highly unlikely.

I doubt at this point Eyetech have sold any boards not slated to run AmigaOS 4. This guarantees that every one that has sold will be running a legit copy of AOS 4.

The moment any Pegasos machine is sold with AOS 4, the piracy door is wide open. Hardware dongles don't work. They didn't work 20 years ago and they don't work now. It's amazing at times what lengths pirates will go to so they don't have to pay for something. You might not like hearing this, but it's a fact.

I doubt any reseller is going to pay for a license for a machine they sell but don't make. They'd have to pay for the license and for the development of whatever dongle would be used. Honestly, what Amiga reseller has money to burn for stuff like this these days?

And if Amiga Inc have any say in who does and does not get a license, forget Genesi ever attaining one.

(All IMO of course.)
......
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2003, 08:31:56 PM »
That's some pirate group if they can modify a ROM... Seriously, how come that program has been up there for months? You'd have thought someone has had it removed, citing DMCA law and what not.

I'm sure that any determined cracker can break the copy protection mechanisms present inside any given computer---think of all those nice modchips available for game consoles. The question is, as always: is the way to crack the system difficult and expensive enough as to scare off sufficient amounts of would-be-pirates?

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