IBM providing CPUs for all three major next-gen consoles

[ksk]

@Waccoon

"I sure as hell don't want a slow PPC when I can have a fast x86, no matter how huge a heatsink it needs. I'm sure most people agree with me, which is why we all use Wintel machines, not Amigas."

A lot of people disagree with you.

Price and SW availability are biggest reasons.

Most (if not every) Amiga fans, would buy PPC if they could do with it all what they want/need to get done.

"When PPC technology is put to good desktop use and can run circles around x86 without needing "Dual CPUs", I'll buy it. "

If a Amigan can do everyting one needs on a PPCAmiga (as fast as on x86) and if it is not more expensive, he/she definitely buys "PPC". Except you, because wintel is better untill PPC runs circles around it.  

"Until then, x86 serves my purposes better. I never wanted a PPC Amiga, and millions of other people don't, either."

It seems you do not want Amiga untill it runs circles around x86.

[downix]

@ksk

I can't speak of OS4, but MOS runs circles around my AMD based machine here on my Pegasos.

[AmigaMac]

PPC's are notorious for getting their asses kicked by x86. It's not the technology that's important, it's the needs (and wants) of the customer. I sure as hell don't want a slow PPC when I can have a fast x86, no matter how huge a heatsink it needs. I'm sure most people agree with me, which is why we all use Wintel machines, not Amigas.

It seems your history has been distorted.  Until Motorola hit the 500 MHz ceiling with the G4 a few years back, PPC was kicking x86 all over the pavement since it's unveiling.  The Pentium 4 was even an embarrassment to Intel in the beginning because the PIII outperformed it initially.  The bottomline is that neither platform runs away with total performance supremacy over the other.  Furthermore, if x86 was so great, why is Intel replacing it with a new design (hence Itanium)?  Most people use Wintel machines because they don't know any better.  Most computer (joe user) users are ill-educated and assume that Windows is the only option out there and have this inferiority complex that you have to use Microsoft based products in order to communicate in this crazy computing kludge.  Not everyone is in agreement with your assessment.

Why does people get so wrapped in the PPC vs x86 issue?  All I care about is choice and we have choice in regards to the above said luckily!

[bbrv]

We contend that IBM will continue to advance with the PowerPC.

I. We see these indications:

1. That covers all major game consoles.

2. The PowerPC in the CPU found in the most advance DTV receivers (satellite or terrestrial). Here is the latest one!

3. Continuing emphasis on Linux. If they own the CPU and the desktop, why wouldn't they "connect the dots" in between? (refer to ANN or MorphOS-News thread from this weekend)

II. We also see some good products that can be packaged around the Pegasos:

1. The Pegasos as it is for the computer enthusiast market supporting multiple operating systems and applications. It becomes a *Development Machine* for multiple platforms. Someone is going to make a deal with us, because being a video console (and being a computer with hardware, OS, and applications/games, but limited by function) won't be enough. In the meanwhile, we will become the ultimate development machine with the 970....;-)

2. Low-cost basic Linux server as addressed in IBM presentation.

3. Firewall starting with the ShopIP and the Crunchbox. Better, we see the other half too built around Nessus. Think about an active penetration box -- the boxcruncher if you will. :-) This active security box could run a pretty looking version of Nessus and using a remote connection be used by CIOs to check their systems. Running server daemon and GTK applications while basically trying to hack and attack the network to understand vulnerabilities. With ShopIP and Nessus we could sell the "ying" and "yang" running on a Pegasos (PPC). A total solution not suffering from the x86 code limitations. The dual package could create a unique product and marketing opportunity. Back-end Crunchbox; front-end Boxcruncher. ;-)

III. We are in active negotiations with the following BIG companies:

1. IBM
2. Atari
3. Universal Music

Think the MMPG Atari Channel or a Universal music *video* channel, but start with this in mind: GLADIATEUR!

This first project is very important to us, because we see the future of digital distribution being a combination of the content and the network itself. If the content can be separated; it can be stolen. We think we have the technology that will enable such a distribution system to exist. Think of Hotmail. The medium is the message (again)! Now it is your game bookshelf online somewhere else, but always accessible to you. It does not download. You run the client on your machine and you play the game with others from where ever you or they are.

Further, Intellectual Property Protection can only occur when the provider and user agree that the property belongs to the creator/distributor. In order to get to this point you must have a *Community*. A entertainment vehicle is the best way to obtain the participation of many people and we think this Project is a good way to get something like this started. We have many technically advanced solutions we intend to introduce to this online game world and we are excited about it.

Now, think of the Super TiVo (uses PowerPC too BTW) that does what is mentioned above using an expanded version of AmiNet*TV* integrated into the MPlayer (we will see if that is possible!) and what that could do with a TV set (and home stereo equipment vs. just an MP3 player) and a 24/7 broadband internet connection.

There is more, but that should be enough for now...:-)

The handwriting is on the wall. We are not sure why some people in this community can't read it.

:-)

R&B

[Hammer]

It seems your history has been distorted. Until Motorola hit the 500 MHz ceiling with the G4 a few years back, PPC was kicking x86 all over the pavement since it's unveiling

Such logic can be also applied to DEC Alpha's kicking of X86’s performance during the Pentium Classic/Pro/II era.    

In terms of desktop market share X86 based system is kicking PPC based systems due to superior ISV, third party support and channel distribution. The real trigger for Intel boosting X86’s processor speed was the arrival of AMD’s K7 Athlon Model 1.

Furthermore, if x86 was so great, why is Intel replacing it with a new design (hence Itanium)?

They want to move their product from elastic to inelastic in economic terms.  

Intel desires to get away from direct competition with the rest of X86 cloners e.g. AMD, Transmeta, VIA and ‘etc’…

Most people use Wintel machines because they don't know any better.

The available software titles, channel distribution support, ISV support and software investment protection was the major factor. Notice the market resistance against Intel’s IA-64. In terms sales, AMD64(X86-64) processors already surplus IA-64.

[AmigaMac]

Such logic can be also applied DEC Alpha kicking of X86’s performance during the Pentium Classic/Pro/II era.

I think we can agree that the Alpha pretty much kicked everyone around the pavement.  Too bad DEC got bought by a 2-bit company called Compaq.

 :-(

[Hammer]

.

I think we can agree that the Alpha pretty much kicked everyone around the pavement. Too bad DEC got bought by a 2-bit company called Compaq.

It’s was the combine attack from Intel and Compaq.
The trigger was DEC suing of Intel over the Socket 8/Pentium Pro designs i.e. claims of copying certain design concepts.

With the fall of DEC, key DEC engineers sets up Next-Gen, then Next-Gen was taken over by AMD** (also made of some key DEC engineers).

Note that, the fall of DEC also indirectly benefited IBM i.e. elimination of a competitor.

[Hammer]

The handwriting is on the wall. We are not sure why some people in this community can't read it.

Refer to http://www.etmag.com/publication/magazine/2003-10/27-1.htm

"Both Windows and Linux continued to grow strongly - benefiting from their association with the x86 server market. Windows continues to command the lion's share of the unit market with 59.3%, while Linux has risen to 16.3% share. "

The growth in X86 continues to be unabated.

[bbrv]

Of course it does Hammer, but other things are "growing' now too.  The point here is that OTHER than computer markets are meeting the demands placed on them from the markets that they originate from to become "computers."  It is a natural evolution.  Cell phones will grow in form and function.  Game consoles will do the same, as will consumer electronics in general.  The point is what is a "computer" is changing.  The world won't change in a day, but things like power efficiency, memory requirements and the cost of license fees can alter the equation of what is and what is not acceptable.

:-)

R&B

[Waccoon]

I sure as hell don't want a slow PPC when I can have a fast x86, no matter how huge a heatsink it needs. I'm sure most people agree with me, which is why we all use Wintel machines, not Amigas."

A lot of people disagree with you.

Price and SW availability are biggest reasons.

Price is low because they are very popular and sell like crazy.  PPC may enter that arena eventually, but not now.

As for software availability, what difference does that make?  An x86 Amiga or PPC Amiga will still not be Windows compatible, and will need its own line of software, anyway.  So, nobody should care what the CPU is -- so long as it's fast, cheap, durable, high in value, and has tons of 3rd party support.  Keep in mind that software availability also applies to dev kits, compilers, tools, and other stuffs that will never be available for PPC, because nobody wants to port them.[/quote]

Most (if not every) Amiga fans, would buy PPC if they could do with it all what they want/need to get done.

But, will they pay $800 for a slow, obsolete PPC, when they can get a faster, more competent machine for much less money?  Speed isn't everything, but value is.

People who buy the AmigaOne are hardcore Wintel haters.  I just hate Windows.

"When PPC technology is put to good desktop use and can run circles around x86 without needing "Dual CPUs", I'll buy it. "

If a Amigan can do everyting one needs on a PPCAmiga (as fast as on x86) and if it is not more expensive, he/she definitely buys "PPC". Except you, because wintel is better untill PPC runs circles around it.

PPC is not as fast as x86, and IS more expensive.  I have no problem with paying more, but I expect it to be worth the money.  $800 for an AmigaOne, or slightly less for a Pegasos, is not my idea of value.

There's more to x86 than just the processor.  Think about the chipset, accesories, standards, manufacturers, competition -- the whole works.  Using PPC is more than just buying a G5 and slapping it into a mobo.  There's too many things you have to think about.  For example, how many people thought that they would have to buy registered memory for the PPC?  With x86 chipsets, you can use any memory you want, registered or not.

"Until then, x86 serves my purposes better. I never wanted a PPC Amiga, and millions of other people don't, either."

It seems you do not want Amiga untill it runs circles around x86.

Um, Amiga is an OS, x86 is a CPU.

An Amiga on x86 would be the same as Amiga on PPC, just faster and cheaper.  It's also noteworthy that choosing x86 now doesn't mean you're stuck with it forever.  If you program your software correctly, it should be easy to switch to other CPUs later with a minimal performance hit.  Windows can't do that, because the Windows architecture sucks (and Microsoft doesn't really want to, anyway).

Choosing x86 over PPC will not guarantee that the Amiga will survive or be better than anything else.  Just take a look at what happened to Amiga Inc. and their "Digital Environment" partnership with Tao.  However, it will be one less headache for them to worry about.

Remember what happened to Be.  Mac clones were stripped off the market, and Be had to switch to x86 just to survive.  Be couldn't hack making their own hardware; I don't see why people think things they are any different for Amiga companies.

The failure of people to realize why x86 survives is WHY such an awful architecture destroyed the competition, and continues to hold its own.  It just cracks me up to hear people bash technologies that swallow up entire markets.

KennyR:  Then they're never going to get what they want. Trying to sell x86 hardware or just software alone in such a small market as the Amiga just doesn't make economic sense.

Nothing about the existing Amiga market makes economic sense.  How many Amiga companies have fallen to bankruptcy or lack of interest?  They need to broaden their scope, and making expensive proprietary hardware does not help.

[Hammer]

An Amiga on x86 would be the same as Amiga on PPC, just faster and cheaper. It's also noteworthy that choosing x86 now doesn't mean you're stuck with it forever. If you program your software correctly, it should be easy to switch to other CPUs later with a minimal performance hit. Windows can't do that, because the Windows architecture sucks (and Microsoft doesn't really want to, anyway).

Actually, Windows runs on more CPU platform natively than the AmigaOS.

1. Windows NT is/was available for PowerPC (NT4), Alpha(NT4/5*), X86-32/IA-32(NT4/5), AMD64/X86-64(NT5), IA-64 (NT5).
2. Windows CE is available for MIPS, SH3/SH4, PowerPC, X86-32 and ARM.

*Internal MS development platform.
The only missing key technology to unify them all is dotNET framework.

Note that, SoftWindows 95 was a PowerPC** native complied MS Windows 95 (variant)  with JIT X86 emulator.  

**For Apple's PowerMac market.

[Hammer]

Of course it does Hammer, but other things are "growing' now too. The point here is that OTHER than computer markets are meeting the demands placed on them from the markets that they originate from to become "computers."

There’s nothing new under the sun in relation to CPU’s “other” usage i.e. an ARM based personal computer solution was an Archimedes/RiscOS box. The same CPU family was installed in PocketPC and PalmOS PADs.  

 It is a natural evolution. Cell phones will grow in form and function. Game consoles will do the same, as will consumer electronics in general.

The said PowerPC participants wouldn’t be the first ones to evolve from single purpose computer to general purpose computer  i.e. we saw this with ARM based CPU but going reverse direction.

**it was being blown away (market power) by X86 manufactures on the desktop market.    

The point is what is a "computer" is changing. The world won't change in a day, but things like power efficiency, memory requirements and the cost of license fees can alter the equation of what is and what is not acceptable.

I might point out that the reverse is also true for desktop PCs i.e.
1.  MS Windows XP Media Centre (includes HW requirements and specifications) for VIVO/TIVO media center roles (Occuring at this moment).
2. Windows CE .NET for embedded roles for PowerPC, MIPS, SH3/SH4, X86 CPU platforms**.
3. The introduction of Intel's “Pentium M”, VIA  C3 and Transmeta for “light and thin” markets.
4. Evolution of Windows XP to Windows XP Embedded i.e. cut down XP.

This can be applied to applied to Linux X86 i.e. refer to http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7301151332.html

**Link includes "Trends in embedded CPU choice" i.e. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5134111490.html

Additional: This link
"http://www.gensw.com/pages/news/news.htm" is is just an example of embedded X86 based competition. The X86 embedded market structure mirrors the X86 desktop market structure i.e. the usual suspects** is in the ball game.  

**AMD, Intel, VIA, ST Micro and'"etc'. Notice the support for “Pentium M” instead of “Pentium VI” in the embedded X86 market…

You will have your hand full with this level of competition.

[downix]

Windows NT is/was available for PowerPC (NT4), Alpha(NT4/5*), X86-32/IA-32(NT4/5), AMD64/X86-64(NT5), IA-64 (NT5).

Missed a few there:

MIPS
PA-RISC
i860

[iamaboringperson]

Don't forget new Cisco routers!

I think PowerPC has a big future!

And I think G5 is faster than PIV

[Hammer]

@downix

Thanks for adding to the list...

[Hammer]

@R&B

On a slightly side track issue;

Are there any plans for Windows CE running on your PowerPC/Pegy II motherboard? Perhaps a Window CE box/virtual machine**…

**VMWARE style not VirtualPC emulator. Some thing can be applied for Linux PPC.