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Offline the_leander

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2003, 08:30:06 PM »
The last of the Great British  engineering Triumphs has past. (and before anyone says anything, yes the french did half the work, but since then they have produced other engineering triumphs, we haven't).

Seems every time we get a good idea we ether get very bad at it (sport) or never follow through on it (Jet Engine - uk actually had a prototype for a supersonic aircraft that was already built 5 years before the US did, never got used. APT, or advanced passinger train, tilted on the corners to help reduce track wear at high speeds and allow higher speeds around said corners - never had the bugs removed and was scrapped, designs were sold to the sweedish, who worked them out, now we're buying tilting trains off of them... That super advanced Catarmeran that was going to take the yaht racing world by storm, but ended up breaking up whilst in one... the list goes on ) and now this...

Its funny and sad, for over 200 years this little island has produced so many of the things that today we take for granted in terms of engineering feets, such as many of todays bridge designs, yet more and more often as time passes we seem to get worse when it actually comes to delivery of the final product.

Its not that we have run out of great engineers either (though in this country it is a dying proffesion) but more and more the people who put these inventions into production flunk and so the idea is lost, only to be sold back to us at a later date for 10 times the original cost...

What is it that we are doing so wrong in this country that causes this to keep happening?

I'll miss concorde, she was always a highlight at airshows that I've been to. The most graceful aircraft ever to take to the sky in my humble opinion. The insides of it though were very tight (I have been aboard the british prototype in an air museum, I'd always wanted to travel in her... guess that will forever be a dream now).
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Offline deakmann

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2003, 08:51:03 PM »
Just to clarify a few points:-

1. The Russian TU-144 was largely developed thanks to informants placed inside the French Concorde development team. The French found out about this and fed the Russians duff information.
When the first Tu144 flew in1969 , 2 months ahead of Concorde the Russians quickly found out the design was flawed setting back their programme by several years.
The PAris Air show crash pretty much killed off the TU144, I beleive it did enter service breifly as a freighter before being scrapped. In the late 1990`s NASA acquired one for future testing purposes, they flew it for a few months before mothballing it again.

2.President Kennedy announced in the early Sixties that the US would create a Supersonic passenger plane, it was eventually discontinued after $400m had been spent and nothing more than a wooden mock up built.

3.Concorde did make a substansial profit for BA who used their planes much more than AIr France. Of course BA were given the planes in the first place.

4.Concorde has flown more Supersonic hours than all the world`s airforces put together.

5. Many technologies used on modern airliners were first used on Concorde such as fly by wire and Carbon fibre brakes.

6. After Concorde`s development Airbus was formed as a joint European challenge to Boing, today Airbus and Boing have roughly equal market share, while Rolls Royce who developed Concorde`s engines sell more civillian airliner engines than their American rivals.

A good website to check out Concorde stuff is:-

http://www.concordesst.com/
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2003, 08:51:04 PM »
:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2003, 08:59:34 PM »
Quote
It's a sad day for innovation when the most advanced commercial product is decommissioned before something is available to supersede it.

Well, it DID have almost 35 years to prove itself, which is a pretty remarkable marketing period.  There was never enough business to warrent a successor.

Remember, reckless innovation without quality testing is what gave us Windows.  Innovation isn't everything, sometimes you need intuition, too.

Quote
Oli_hd:  I went to see the last landing and take off from Birmingham, a very sad day, things are going backwards.

Backwards?  It's just supply and demand at work.  That's all.  It was only a hundred years ago when flight itself was a dream.

Isn't GM working on Pulse Engines, which are just as fast, but more efficient than Ramjet engines?  Innovation never stops, it just depends what's viable for the market.  I, for one, would never spend upwards of $5,000 for a seat on a plane just so I could get there an hour earlier.  Yes, innovation would make seats cheaper, but speed costs money.  How fast do you want to go?

I can only see SST as an advantage for trans-continental flights, anyway.  Over land they would have to reduce speeds.
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2003, 09:23:25 PM »
Quote
the "corncordski" never entered commercial flight and the program was cancelled after the crash. And there you have to ask was it really a russian design and not just a concorde... there are a lot of people who think the russians stole the concorde design...


Of course they stole the design. AFAIK, they (the Tupolevs) doesn't even deny this today. However, they could not reassemble it identically, hence the differencies. That aircraft actually had some advantages over the concorde, like superiour manouverability (it also had some disadvantages, like a weaker structure).

And the "corncordski" (TU-144 ) actually entered commercial flight after the crash in France AFAIK, but only for a relatively short period of time, and only inside the Soviet Union.

There are some (pretty much confirmed) rumours regarding the "concordski" crash (there are many theories, but this is the one I believe in the most), that says that a French military Mirage III jet aircraft took off before the Concorde show begun, and then stayed away during it. It's mission was to take close up pictures of the "concordski" in flight. Then, when it was time for the "concordski" to enter the scene, it snuk up upon it to take the pictures. The "concordski" pilots were not notified about this, and made some evasive manouvers to avoid a collision, which cased one or several engines to stall. On Jet Aircrafts you can restart engines by dropping the nose and let the wind blow through the turbines to get them going, and then "add some fuel and sparks" ;-). The pilot did this, but the show was performed at low altitude, and when he realized he was too close to the ground he had to pull up fast, too fast for the aircrafts specs, and the structure broke down.

But a funny thing is that at least one concordski is in operation **today** AFAIK. It is used in an **American** research project. Kind of ironic, huh?  :-)

"- And the winner is ...?" ;-)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2003, 09:49:37 PM »
BTW:

"Now, the Tupolev bureau keep working on its successor, TU-244. They expect that the new supersonic could be airborne in 10 years — if any airline will buy it."
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline that_punk_guy

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2003, 09:54:19 PM »
FFS it's only a plane!  :-P
 

Offline drk

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2003, 09:54:30 PM »
Poster: deakmann Date: 2003/10/24 20:51:03

6. After Concorde`s development Airbus was formed as a joint European challenge to Boing,


See there was an Amiga aspect to this story after all  :-D
 

Offline Bagins

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2003, 10:05:52 PM »
I watched two of the Concordes fly over London this afternoon as they mad their aproch to Heathrow there were about 8 of us on top of our office block,
Incidently Concorde is still the only plain that can sustain mack 2 with out reheat!

Wm.
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2003, 11:27:07 PM »
@ Bagins

I have allways been weak for aircrafts, and the Concorde is a beutiful piece of engineering IMO. It's old as hell, but it is very unique. And this concept will not be seen again anytime soon.

The concorde, as well as the space race, was products of the cold war, not market demands. Today there is no cold war. Only market demands.
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline Knapster

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2003, 12:35:15 AM »
I stood today on London's Vauxhall Bridge with many others watching those last concorde fly by. I had the feeling that people were watching the passing of the last idols for the religion that was "progress". I think people have the feeling watching it that things could really get better and man can make things of great beauty and novelty. Now we just subscribe to the commerical principles that brought about its end (and didn't bring about its creation in the first place).

Whatever the future may bring, although it wont be so different to what you've seen before, it will be cheap and so non-descript you wont even notice the design (or lack of it). Innovation is by definition conspicuous.
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2003, 01:35:46 AM »
Quote
Well, it DID have almost 35 years to prove itself, which is a pretty remarkable marketing period. There was never enough business to warrent a successor.
Remember, reckless innovation without quality testing is what gave us Windows. Innovation isn't everything, sometimes you need intuition, too.


Uh?  Concorde had one accident, that was it.  Would you like to compare that to the Boeing (sp?) 7x7 record?
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2003, 02:18:11 AM »
Quote
Uh? Concorde had one accident, that was it.

Who said anything about accidents?  By reckless innovation without testing, I meant making products people don't want, and they won't pay for, meaning it's a financial dead end.
 

Offline J

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2003, 10:55:14 AM »
Even those who aren't really interested in aircraft must admit concorde is a work of art.

Even my mum likes seeing the thing!

It's very sad to see the end of concorde. It has a fantastic safety record compared to most other planes. It also has many years left in it yet.

Richard Branson offered to buy up all BA's concordes but British Airways said no denying many people the opportunity to see concorde in flight.

 :-(
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2003, 11:56:01 AM »
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By reckless innovation without testing



actually Concorde was more thoroughly tested then any other aircraft of its time, ten years after it entered service and the standards that were used to test concorde were STILL not all implimented in other commercial airliners. Concorde was and is the safest aircraft ever designed and built for the airline industry.

Quote
I meant making products people don't want, and they won't pay for, meaning it's a financial dead end.


The funny thing is is that prior to 9/11 concorde was the ONLY thing BA had that was making any money. Few people realise this but beyond two of the bare bones airlines Ryanair and an American no thrills airline, NOT ONE AIRLINE HAS MADE A PROFIT IN 20 YEARS. Startling eh?  And also true.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Concorde's final commercial flight
« Reply #29 from previous page: October 25, 2003, 12:18:23 PM »
Even the Space Shuttle (the worlds most technologically advanced Aircraft) has a worse safty record than Concorde!!! if you consider the number of people killed per hours of flight time.


Only 113 People killed in it's entire history, and even then only in one accident! ... I think more people have been killed making a cup of tea, in Britian alone!!