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Author Topic: Amiga.org and Bias  (Read 18231 times)

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Offline SirLancelotDuLac

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2003, 08:23:12 PM »
Quote

There is a difference between "moderation" and "censorship".

The first is welcome, and necessary if this forum is to remain civil.

The latter is not welcome, because it's aimed at people's views, not their behaviour.

IMHO, posts on amiga.org get moderated, in contract to other sites where censorship reigns supreme.


Bill,

You are incorrect; a person's views go hand in hand with their behavior.  If you are moderating someone's behavior, you are censoring their views.  Just because you don't agree with their views on acceptable behavior, does not mean that you are not censoring their views.

According to webster's dictionary, censor is defined as the following.


Quote

Main Entry: 2censor
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing  /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/
Date: 1882
: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable


And a moderator is defined as the following.

Quote

Main Entry: mod·er·a·tor
Pronunciation: 'mä-d&-"rA-t&r
Function: noun
Date: circa 1560
1 : one who arbitrates : MEDIATOR
2 : one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion: as a : the presiding officer of a Presbyterian governing body b : the nonpartisan presiding officer of a town meeting c : the chairman of a discussion group
3 : a substance (as graphite) used for slowing down neutrons in a nuclear reactor



So the difference is a moderator essentially organizes the meeting or discussion board we have here, which Amiga.orgs moderators do well.  A censor, however, removes objectionable content, which the moderators here also do.  Let's not kid ourselves people, any site that removes objectionable content censors its users, period.  That being said, it is not necessarily a bad thing.  If you compare Amiga.org to Moo Bunny, the topics on Amiga.org have never degraded to the level many topics on Moo Bunny degrade to.  (Don't misunderstand me, I love the bunny, but its lack of censorship does have its downside).

Aside from restricting certain words, censorship is based purely on one's opinion.  I have seen many times when one person considers another person's response to be a flame, but when I read it, I do not see fire anywhere.  Bill, you obviously agree with the Amiga.org moderator's opinions more than other sites.  Does that make them any more right than the other site's opinion?  No it does not.  Just as Amiga.orgs opinion is not any less right that other websites opinion.

The other side of this is that the moderators need to accept the fact that they ARE CENSORS and because of this it is really is to APPEAR BIASED.  The question they really have to ask themselves is, are they?  If they would let any one person get away with something that they have moderated when someone else did it, even if that person they let slide is another moderator, then yes they are BIASED.  If you do not want appear biased you have to treat EVERYONE equally, which, if you look at human history, is impossible to do.  The moderators here might just have to deal with the fact that there are people out there that disagree with them and consider them biased because of it.  If you can not deal with that FACT, you should not be a moderator.
 

Offline Lwanmtr

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2003, 08:34:23 PM »
I for one feel that folks ought not go around insulting others for their views, and that if they do, they have no place here.
 

Offline bhoggett

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2003, 08:37:41 PM »
@SirLancelotDuLac

You're missing the point, even if you are right about the dictionary definition of each word.

There is a difference between censoring antisocial behaviour (swear words, personal attacks & insults etc), and censoring views on the basis of a political opinion.

This site is continually being accused of applying pro-Genesi censorship, which as far as I can tell is not true. It is however significant that the people who make those accusations are huge supporters of a site that openly does apply political censorship to its forums in favour of Amiga Inc.

I have frequently been critical of Amiga Inc, and I have been critical of Genesi too, when I feel the occasion deserves it.  The main difference is that I am allowed to do it here, whereas on other sites my criticism of one side would be censored while that of their opponents would be welcomed, even if I used similar language on both occasions.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to see politically motivated censorship here, although I do think it is necessary to enforce a certain level of civility.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline olegil

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2003, 08:43:55 PM »
@Lwanmtr:

Well put. If everyone behaved, this wouldn't be such a bad place.

So, to everyone I've offended:
Sorry

Now, I've apologised. I suggest everyone else do the same, ok?

On the other hand, I'm getting a BIT tired of hearing certain moderators/other people harping on about sCAM, lies etc. We know. We've heard it COUNTLESS times before. We have NO reason to believe you will come ANY closer to a solution by annoying other users with it. So if you could MAYBE consider a new tactic I would be very grateful. Just don't try to kill off OS4 because you have no interest in it. I have some interest in it, you see. And I haven't tried to cover that up at ALL.

Rambling mode off, I guess.  :-P
 

Offline Paul_Gadd

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2003, 08:48:35 PM »
Quote
as long as a user doesn't violates our posting guidelines, there is no censorship.


Good  :-)
 

Offline Blomberg

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2003, 08:49:37 PM »
@meerschaum or mips_proc or whatever

Quote
this is PURELY my opinon but I think the people crying 'bias' wont be happy until this site is not only devoid of anything but Amiga.inc news/postings/etc... but actively goes against anything other then Amiga.inc solutions.. i.e 'UAE is killing amiga!!! petition governor to ban UAE!!" etc etc etc... this sites NEVER been biased...its users who make it appear biased because there are a growing number of users forgetting about old amigas/amiga.inc/etc and going to Pegasos/MOS/UAE/Amithlon/etc and the people screaming 'bias' dont like that.

Funny you should say that, since the biggest emu-hater of them all is one of the MOS-crowd  :-|

Offline MarkTime

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2003, 08:52:34 PM »
@argo: I know you didn't ask me, but I'm libertarian.

@everyone

well, the problem here is always the same, people say they are offended by behaviour, but what they are really offended by is IDEAS.

I sometimes stray from talking about ideas...but if I'm really, really careful, I can talk about nothing but ideas, but people remain just as offended, get just as angry, and make just as many calls for censorship.

The solution to the problem, will be when Amiga.org realizes moderation is not the solution, and is very clear in telling the users, that there are heavily moderated sites already available for their use, and that this board does tolerate ideas, and isn't going to be pollyannish and just plain silly about trying to clamp down on discussions.

That is my opinion....because let me tell you, a PERFECT censor is never going to be able to keep people from getting offended...the problem lays with the person whose skin is so thin that they can't stop being offended.

At least consider, that is part of the problem...not just on the part of those with strong opinions.
 

Offline Eer0

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2003, 09:04:22 PM »
-ignore-
It\\\'s not my problem that you read what I am typing and not understand what I am meaning.
 

Offline dammy

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2003, 09:14:35 PM »
Poster: olegil Date: 2003/8/21 15:43:55



Olegil, are you one of those OS4 Testers by any chance, are you?

Dammy
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Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself.
 

Offline SirLancelotDuLac

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2003, 09:26:07 PM »
Quote
There is a difference between censoring antisocial behaviour (swear words, personal attacks & insults etc), and censoring views on the basis of a political opinion.


Bill,

You missed my point entirely (and yes I did get your point before).  Antisocial behaviour IS a matter of opinion, PERIOD.  The majority generally determines what anti-social behavior is, but that does not change the fact that it is their VIEW, which can be in opposition to other peoples VIEWS.  For instance, in America, public nudity is considered bad behavior and against the law.  There are many here who disagree with that, however, they will be arrested if they express their VIEWS.  Censoring is censoring no matter how you try to color-coat it, however, that does NOT make it a bad thing.

This site DOES censor, it is NOT a bad thing, but if you CENSOR people, you are going to be accused of taking sides, PERIOD.  To contrast, Moo Bunny DOES NOT censor, it is also NOT a bad thing, but it too DOES have its down sides.

Quote
This site is continually being accused of applying pro-Genesi censorship, which as far as I can tell is not true.


I think it should be obvious as to why this site is considered pro-Genesi, because of Wayne, his previous position as webmaster, his recent employment by Genesi and his continued involvment of this site.  Do those facts make the accusations correct?  HELL NO.  Does that mean Wayne should stop being involved with the site?  HELL NO  But those facts do mean the moderators need to walk a very thin line with their moderation or they will be accused of it.  If Amiga.org does not want to be accused of taking sides, it needs to be very careful how it applies its moderation.


Quote

It is however significant that the people who make those accusations are huge supporters of a site that openly does apply political censorship to its forums in favour of Amiga Inc.


As stated before, what should be censorsed is a matter of opinion and so are the reasons why.  You may believe the censorship happens because of "political" agenda and the censors may feel it's because they violate the websites policies.  Just because you disagree with them, does not make you right.

On the other hand, I have more respect for a website that OPENLY applies political censorship than one that applies political censorship but claims it does not.  

For the record, I have not seen Amiga.org apply any political censorship and would be very disappointed if they started.  (Unless of course they announced that was their intention before hand)  (I missed all of the comments that supposedly got Ray removed, so I refuse to take side in that mess since I don't know all of the facts)
 

Offline redrumloa

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2003, 09:55:19 PM »
Quote
On the other hand, I'm getting a BIT tired of hearing certain moderators/other people harping on about sCAM, lies etc.


I've probably used sCAM, it have a neat ring to it. I'll try to refrain from that word. :-D
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline Bobsonsirjonny

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2003, 10:35:19 PM »
I know - how about if everyone  doesn't  have anything constructive to say - dont say it at all :-).

Its been ####ing rediculuse on here - and there has been no need for it.
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Offline Kees

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2003, 10:42:24 PM »
Amen to that !  :-)
Kees Witteveen
Amiga.org

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Offline iamaboringperson

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2003, 10:46:41 PM »
Quote
... and think they can troll us, so naturally we troll back.
No, you don't automatically 'troll back' just because somebody trolls you.

There is always the option of sitting back and ignoring people. :-)

Quote
we make our own decisions but i would love to see LESS NON amiga related stuff here, easy as that.
Just don't read it, easy as that.
 

Offline Merko

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2003, 10:57:48 PM »
IMO, there's extensive moderation on a.org, perhaps more serious than
on any other Amiga-related site. Flames and trolls are removed more
rigourously than on other sites, at least that's my impression.

Now, some people clearly don't understand when they are being
offensive, and so they don't understand why their posts are being
deleted. Well - their problem. IMO if you find your posts being
deleted, you should keep a copy and take a good look at anything that
was deleted.


I will not deny that there are a couple of individuals who are trying
to "support" the Pegasos/MorphOS in a very offensive way, insulting
people and trolling. However, I think there is a cathegory of people
which is really overrepresented among OS4/AInc supporters, and that's
those who are not really trolling, but who are simply unable to apply
any critical thought whatsoever as regards AInc announcements,
statements and products.

Just as an example: This latest thing with the Agreement/No agreement
exchange between bbrv and McEwen. I can't help but noticing that when
AInc made their statements, there were quite a lot of people instantly
taking this as some kind of "proof" that bbrv were lying. On the
contrary, when bbrv makes statements, the vast majority of
Pegasos/MorphOS supporters try to make the two statements fit together
somehow rather than automatically believing bbrv's words as the only
valid point of view and McEwen to be full of lies.


Sure, I admit I put more trust into bbrv's words, but I would still
expect the truth to be somewhere "in between". And even though I
consider the possibility that McEwen may simply be lying, I'd
certainly never claim this to be proven or obvious simply because bbrv
make a conflicting statement.
 

Offline Argo

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Re: Amiga.org and Bias
« Reply #29 from previous page: August 21, 2003, 11:07:32 PM »
Quote:
"... and think they can troll us, so naturally we troll back.
No, you don't automatically 'troll back' just because somebody trolls you."

"There is always the option of sitting back and ignoring people. "

Or just contact an admin about the situation. There is also the handy "Contact Us" link under System in the Extra Stuff Menu.