Amiga Auction List Posted

[Hammer]

I made a suggestion that AmigaOS x86 was an effort to displace AROS. It was a possiblity, not fact, and I presented it as such.

I wouldn’t regard the current ‘AROS (referring to the main X86 distribution)’ as ‘AmigaOS X86’ since it doesn’t run the old 'AmigaOS' based legacy software** on the X86 hardware. Secondly, AROS doesn’t quite have an official “AmigaOS” endorsement.  It’s just a clone**** with source code compatibility on non-68k hardware.  

I don’t see people in the mainstream market labelling ‘OS/2 Warp’(with Windows compatibility) as ‘MS Windows’…  

**Binary distributions.
****A clone that has potential.

I do hope that Amiga Inc can control their unnecessary expenditures in the near future. Events such as mentioned earlier doesn’t help with evangelism of AmigaOS platform.

[Tigger]

>>>>
Not so sure about that. Amiga Inc. is our distributor (as per our SDA) and only distributes our product. They take a cut of the sales-price and that is the money they make. It might be possible they need to pay of depts first with that part of the money (not sure of your legal system and not sure if there are any more depts either), but it seems very strange to me that other people's money should be used to pay of their distributors' depth.
>>>>>

I dont think law in the Netherlands is that much different, but Amiga Inc has to settle the judgements against them before they can pay you a dime, they currently arent paying salaries to their employees/volunteers for much the same reason.  At this point, depending on how much the auction takes in (my guess is they will still owe the landlord money), they will still need to sell over 30,000 gamepacks before the will get enough royalties (counting the full sum from Microsoft into there pot) to pay there debts, and as more former employees sue, and more debters sue this number gets bigger, not counting the current volunteers, I would guess there are probably a dozen ex-employees like Bolten and Matt who are owed money.   All of them who sue (and win and they will all win) will get paid before you get paid.  They'll get paid before the volunteers get their salaries back, the problem is I'm not sure Amiga will be around long enough for them to pay everyone the money they owe them.
    -Tig

[Ohno]

but Amiga Inc has to settle the judgements against them before they can pay you a dime

Again.. they distribute our products for which we get paid, they only take a cut. That cut is all they are legally entitled to so it is the only part any depter can claim.

[imaginary world]
If you'd ask me to sell a home-cinema system for you and we agree I get 5% of the sales-price is I make the sale, that 5% is all depters would be able to take from me, although I have the full amount of money in my pocket after a sale. This is because most likely you can show the correct paperwork to prove that 95% of what I have in my pocket after that sale is legally yours. They cannot take your money to pay of my depts.
[/imaginary world - yes.. I'm deptless again ]

Just like the auctioners here legally had to allow items to be removed from the auction, since they are loans to Amiga Inc, deptors can not claim money that is legally someone else's money.

[Ohno]

And about the Peck-story: I don't have the facts (although I do know Amiga Inc's side of the story as well), but I have worked for a startup company in the past. I went months without pay as well.
Some people quit their jobs because of it, which is what you SHOULD do if you're not feeling comfortable with the situation. I stayed because I wanted to. I preferred the challenge over the paycheck at that time. In the end it didn't work out and the company did go bust.
Bummer... For every success there are hundreds of failures. You can take the risk to either win or loose in the end, or you can play it safe and find another job. Everyone has to decide for himself, but you must remember the choice is yours and so are the consequences of that choice.

I'm developing for Amiga-Anywhere.. why?
I love the platform and again I love the challenge. I have a full-time job next to it to get me a steady income so I don't even take a financial risk here, but I know people who do. And I can only admire them for it, they are following their dream just like the people at Amiga Inc. Following your dreams is usually not easy and can hold a great deal of risks. The people at Amiga Inc. put their life into creating their dream and all they hear is people bitching about it. I see Amiga Inc. people working all days, evenings and weekends, they are helpfull to the developers, they are bringing us a new OS a new platform and a way for bedroom programmers to get their stuff released again. For me they bring back fun to computing. Something I've sorely missed the last couple of years.

And what do they get for their sacrifice? A lot of people bitching about everything. Every word they say is misinterpreted and fired back at them. When they do decide to go silent they are attacked for being silent.
I do get worked up about that, because I respect people who take a risk to follow their dream. These are usually the kind of people who actually make a difference in the world if they succeed, but are never heard of again when they fail. And these kind of people, whether successfull or not ALL make mistakes along the way. That's part of life and part of being human. It's a learning experience.

It seems a lot of people are actually putting huge amounts of energy into finding things Amiga Inc. did wrong and then 'spread the truth'. How about giving these people a break? They want the same thing every true Amigan would want: Computing should be fun again.

Regards,

Onno

[Ogy]

I completly agree with you Ohno!!!

But why lies???

I think most of the people wouldnt be bitter and angry with Amiga Inc if they were more open and honest with the public - specially comunity who was blindly waiting and beliving in their promises!!!

I think that is the point here...

[Ohno]

I think most of the people wouldnt be bitter and angry with Amiga Inc if they were more open and honest with the public - specially comunity who was blindly waiting and beliving in their promises!!!

Yes, but I think most of the time (missed deadlines etc) they didn't think they were telling lies at that time. They indeed wanted things to move MUCH quicker. Don't you think they wanted to move forwards more than anyone?
A lot of bitterness is also inherited from the previous Amiga-companies making false promises etc.

As I and AI themselves said: mistakes were made and things they said might not have come true. Maybe they even did willingly misrepresent facts, not sure about that.
If they did I'm pretty sure it was because they wanted to succeed so badly. I haven't experienced a single company yet that hasn't, which doesn't make it right and sure as hell doesn't make me LIKE it. But fact is (and this indeed is a fact) that there are some people at Amiga Inc. who are working extremely hard to get things done. They want to succeed and they've put a lot on the line.
And all they see is people putting them down.

As I stated before, I am not an Amiga Worshipper, but I do like Amiga-Anywhere and would love to get an updated Amiga-OS. But I am interested in Pegasos as well and you shouldn't be surprised if I buy a Peg2 in time as well. It's all about having fun in computing again for me and my Amiga's provided fun for me back in the days. I want to get that fun back and so far it seems like it is getting there. It just takes time and I'm pretty sure the people behind MOS are working just as hard (and the people behind AROS for that matter). I'm glad there'll even be choice in the future. Competition is good in my humble opinion.

On one hand I SEE Amiga Inc. people working hard to get things done, I see the support I'm getting from them when needed and personally, as far as I can see, I don't think I've ever been lied to by any of them. On the other hand I see what people around here are saying about them.

These things are completely out of balance and it seems a lot of people are just having a go at Amiga Inc. for the sake of it.

That's just not right, they deserve a bit more respect for what they are doing or trying to do.

[Ogy]

Like I said earlier - I do agree with you!!!

But in my opinion at least honest and promised monthly "executive updates" are needed to at least put things straight with people who are expecting things...

Just try to be objective - and you will be spot on with your opinion!!!

Keep in mind that not everyone over here takes computing for fun... Me for example!!! I am graphic and web-designer as well as musician who needs tools for his job. If I was waiting for Amiga to deliver product (that they said they would 2 years ago) I would never get anywhere...

[Tigger]

Poster: Ohno Date: 2003/6/16 1:55:35

but Amiga Inc has to settle the judgements against them before they can pay you a dime

Again.. they distribute our products for which we get paid, they only take a cut. That cut is all they are legally entitled to so it is the only part any depter can claim.

Again, that is not how it works, unless Microsoft is writing checks directly to you and Amiga Inc is just mailing them to you, the money from Microsoft goes to an account, the money for that account will go to Bolten before it goes to you, this belief that because they are a distributer for you, you will get the money owed you while they money the courts have give to Bolten, Matt and others will go unpaid is incorrect, don't let the Canadian or the Scottsman tell you different.   As for you imaginary scenario, that doesnt work like that here as well.   First of all stores buy there merchandise, so your scenario is incorrect, but if they didnt, what would happen is you would deposit the check for the 100% and your debters would seize the money, it wouldnt matter that part of it was a "debt" to the manufacturer of the system.  And understand, in reality as a distributer, each unit they sell incurs a debt by them to you for your price per unit.   Since you are way down the food chain in the debt department, you dont have a court ordering them to pay you, etc, you will get paid after Bolten, Matt, the Landlord, the express company, the taxes for Washington State, the taxes for the IRS, etc.  I think if you ask any US lawyer they will agree with my opinion.  
     -Tig

[dammy]

Poster: Ohno Date: 2003/6/16 2:55:35

Just like the auctioners here legally had to allow items to be removed from the auction, since they are loans to Amiga Inc, deptors can not claim money that is legally someone else's money.

Debt and property have different coverage under the law so let's not blur the possible problem.  Amiga Inc will owe you your royalities, regardless on who gets paid first.
 Amiga Inc may be required to pay existing debts first before they can pay off new debts, such as royalities to you.  

I have a cousin who had such an experience.  The publisher of his code (back in the days of Vic-20 games) went under and never paid on it.  Court ordered judgements had a highier priority then my cousin's work so guess who got screwed? ;-\

Dammy

[Tigger]

And about the Peck-story: I don't have the facts (although I do know Amiga Inc's side of the story as well), but I have worked for a startup company in the past. I went months without pay as well.

Lets go over the facts then:

1) Amiga Inc didnt pay Bolten

2) Amiga Inc didnt pay his insurance

3) Amiga Inc didnt pay the taxes for the salaries when they were paying them.

4) Amiga Inc lost the lawsuit with Bolten for 30K

5) Amiga Inc failed to pay within 90 days

6) Bill McEwen claimed lots of interesting things at his deposition with Boltens lawyers.

Repeat steps 1-5 for Matt instead of Bolten.   Repeat those steps for a bunch of other ex-employees in the near future if Amiga gets any money at all.  I'm sorry you can excuse Amiga Inc criminal actions with they are working towards a dream rift, I personally dont support a dream built on lies and framed with legal threats.  
    -Tig

[Ohno]

I think if you ask any US lawyer they will agree with my opinion.

I'm not going to. My mind is already at peace (if it wasn't already).... besides.. it'll cost me a lot of money and he's gonna tell me exactly what you said, right?  :-D

[Tigger]

I'm not going to. My mind is already at peace (if it wasn't already).... besides.. it'll cost me a lot of money and he's gonna tell me exactly what you said, right?

Since thats my lawyers opinion I would agree with that statement, thankfully I don't personally have to pay my lawyer though I do have to put up with her snoring  :-).
     -Tig

[Ohno]

I'm sorry you can excuse Amiga Inc criminal actions with they are working towards a dream rift, I personally dont support a dream built on lies and framed with legal threats.

I clearly stated that I do not agree with everything they said or did in the past. Just like I don't agree with what a lot of other companies do/say. I was just pointing out that people are overreacting in their responses and are generally insulting the wrong people. It's just like someone who is mad at a company for faulty products and start shouting at the support-guy or helpdesk-employee.

And I'm not even going to respond to that 'dream built on lies'-remark, because it's too obvious that's generally not the thing people dream about. Not even those 'Evil' Amiga guys.


Regards,

Onno

[Ohno]

Since thats my lawyers opinion I would agree with that statement, thankfully I don't personally have to pay my lawyer though I do have to put up with her snoring

Cool... so we agree on something? Wow.. that doesn't happen a lot to me on Amiga.org these days  :-P

Bummer about you having to put up with the snoring... I take it she'll sue if you confront her about it?  :-)

[zee4]

Ogy,

 

I think most of the people wouldnt be bitter and angry with Amiga Inc if they were more open and honest with the public - specially comunity who was blindly waiting and beliving in their promises!!!

I think they have done just that over the years, the problem is some people take them at their word (they should really include that standard disclaimer about "forward looking statements...changing business conditions...etc.") and others, frankly see everything as a conspiracy. Of course, some of the later also work for and/or support competing "Amiga-like" projects.

I said this a few weeks ago, now that OS4 is just around the corner we'll see a lot of FUD flying. These people know that once OS4 starts selling, a lot of these alternatives are going to look pretty amateurish.
This is their last chance to knock off Amiga and they know it

Zoltan

[System]

This is their last chance to knock off Amiga and they know it

Zoltan,

Looks like you're the one whose fallen prey to conspiracy thought.  Amiga Inc is dying of self-inflicted wounds and most people here at least admit it.