Francis Charig responds to Opinion Article

[bhoggett]

@Ohno

Amiga Inc. is doing quite a good job at shutting up until they have something to show these days, so you don't have to target them. Since I'm one of those developers under NDA/SDA and I've been praising the Amiga-Anywhere environment I think you're attacking me among others?

Anyone singing the praises of vapour, yes.

You want us to shut up? So we cannot respond to people attacking something without even trying it, while we actually know at least a little bit what we are talking about? I expected a bit more constructive critisism from you.

The point is that nothing of what you say is verifiable. In order to veryfy it, one has to sign and NDA and SDA, and if they find out you were telling porkies the NDA prevents them from revealing it.

There are a few early examples of Amiga-Anywhere content available (gamecards) so it is not vapourware anymore.

Aren't those game cards about two years old? What proof do they contain of Amiga Inc's contribution?

I think the lack of any product for the last two years says a lot more than those gamecards do.

The chances of any quality software being released gratis on AmigaDE? Nil.

Not true.

You're not thinking straight. If the software is of any quality, Amiga Inc will assume they can make money out of it and will not release distribution rights back to the author. The only way for this to change would be if there was so much software being developed, that Amiga Inc. would only cream off the best 5% of titles and reject the rest, therefore leaving lots of other software of quality for alternative distribution. But it takes quite a leap of imagination to see that happening any time in the forseable future.

Not true. (doom and quake were ported pretty quickly).

Yes, they were. So quickly that I believe they were ported before the SDA was even introduced.

So, which parts of Amiga Inc's proprietary contribution do the Doom and Quake ports make use of, and how do they get around including proprietary code into a GPL release?

At least those geeky programmers are having fun.

Yes, you said so before. In fact that was the only thing you could come up with when I asked what made AmigaDE so special. That and the way TAO implemented something, which has nothing to do with Amiga Inc's contribution at all. Well, programmers having fun is very nice, but it's hardly enough to make a platform successful.

Besides.. Linux started out as a platform for geeky programmers too and today it is becoming more and more of a threat to Microsoft Windows in the corporate world and will get better in the years to come. When the Mozilla team got together it started out as a team of geeky programmers to. They now have a very good browser which will get even better in the years to come.

Neither Linux nor Mozilla had to put up with the restrictions and secrecy surrounding AmigaDE. It's not the technology that sucks, it's the approach.

You wanted quality apps on DE. Well quality takes time. It took Linux years to get where it is today and Mozilla took years as well.

So? Both rapidly acquired veritable armies of developers, and it still took them ages. Where will AmigaDE get with the few people prepared to put up with Amiga Inc's demands?  Not to mention that for every Linux or Mozilla there are twenty other projects that vanished without a trace.

Now seriously.. Your message was only posted to start a flamewar, wasn't it?

No, it wasn't, and I'm getting pretty sick of people always making the same accusation when they don't want to answer my question.

What is it that makes AmigaDE special? Why will it attract people from alternative solutions? What makes it superior? What have Amiga Inc's added to intent to make it worth signing their draconian SDA agreement?

Isn't anyone capable of coming up with concrete factual and verifiable answers rather than just bombarding us with fluff?

[HMetal]

Anyone singing the praises of vapour, yes.

So, product on the shelves at one of the biggest computer retail stores worldwide is considered vapour by you?   I do hope you realize that the Amiga Game Paks are the first instance, in over 10 years, that anyone involved in the Amiga Market have reached the masses in any shape or form.

The point is that nothing of what you say is verifiable. In order to veryfy it, one has to sign and NDA and SDA, and if they find out you were telling porkies the NDA prevents them from revealing it.

You haven't considered the option of actually contacting the producers directly (Amiga Inc.) if you are interested/curious about the products? Blaming other people for your lack of communication skills is one way of solving it, I guess.

Aren't those game cards about two years old? What proof do they contain of Amiga Inc's contribution?

The version of Intent used on the cards wasnt available 2 years ago(let alone one year ago) the same goes for the package system, the various API´s and so on. Also some of the games included on the games have been seriously updated since their initial release, the others where released first on these cards. Amiga´s contribution would be the various API´s developed by Amiga(ami2d, amidb, Datatype System(and Datatypes), prism, dianne, packager and the storage system) is used quite extensivly off the top of my head) and the distribution itself. As for proof well heck all you need to do for that is to either go to a CompUSA store or click this link or click this link. If that isnt proof of a product I dont realy know what to tell you.

I think the lack of any product for the last two years says a lot more than  those gamecards do.

There have been releases of standalone players, separate game cards, game pak´s and a varietly of APIs and tools.

You're not thinking straight. If the software is of any quality, Amiga Inc will assume they can make money out of it and will not release distribution rights back to the author. The only way for this to change would be if there was so much software being developed, that Amiga Inc. would only cream off the best 5% of titles and reject the rest, therefore leaving lots of other software of quality for alternative distribution. But it takes quite a leap of imagination to see that happening any time in the forseable future.

Now here is a novelty idea for you..  if we (Amiga) treats our partners in a professional manner, they will be quite happy to work out any issues we have about most things. If one of our partners wants to release his/her content for free, there are ways to possibly accomodate that.

Yes, they were. So quickly that I believe they were ported before the SDA was even introduced.

And ported again, after people have made all kinds of additions like scaling, rotation, sound, stylus control and so on.

So, which parts of Amiga Inc's proprietary contribution do the Doom and Quake ports make use of, and how do they get around including proprietary code into a GPL release?

Simply by following this passage of the GPL licence agreement:

" However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of  the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that  component itself accompanies the executable."

If you want to read more about the specifics of the case in question click here.

Yes, you said so before. In fact that was the only thing you could come up with when I asked what made AmigaDE so special. That and the way TAO implemented something, which has nothing to do with Amiga Inc's contribution at all. Well, programmers having fun is very nice, but it's hardly enough to make a platform successful.

Successful against what benchmark: Windows?, Linux?  PS2?  Be?  OS2?  AmigaOS??

intent is in part what makes it special. Second would be Amiga Inc´s APIs, making it easier for developers to do their content. Finally, third would be a working distribution agreement that works for small developers.

Neither Linux nor Mozilla had to put up with the restrictions and secrecy surrounding AmigaDE. It's not the technology that sucks, it's the approach.

Linux or Mozilla aren´t commercial products either, and neither need commercial distribution to get to market.  If you think comercial distribution sucks in general, I suggest you go use Debian.  Otherwise, you might have some understanding of the restrictions. However, you seems to be under the impression that those restrictions will be in effect for the forseable future. This is simply a false assumption as we  are actively working with Tao and other partners to update and include our gear in a new SDK; an SDK that should be available in the coming months (to quote one of those partners: "when its ready.")

So? Both rapidly acquired veritable armies of developers, and it still took them ages. Where will AmigaDE get with the few people prepared to put up with Amiga Inc's demands? Not to mention that for every Linux or Mozilla there are twenty other projects that vanished without a trace.

Again both are open-source and are not valid as examples.  Instead, take commercial Linux game development as an example. I dont know what demands you have seen from Amiga Inc. as I've not seen any guns to anyone´s head to sign anything. Also any problems any developer had with the NDA/SDA, we have been able to work out either by changing the agreements, explaining the terms or simply working on a individual  basis to come to mutual agreement.

While we aren't happy about the pace of how things have progressed so far we cant do much more than hunker down and continue working away and try to correct problems as we get to them (such as updated SDK´s, honoring party packs and coupons and so on).

What is it that makes AmigaDE special? Why will it attract people from alternative solutions? What makes it superior? What have Amiga Inc's added to intent to make it worth signing their draconian SDA agreement?

What makes DE special?  Well.. for starters, what Amiga inc. have added is quite lengthy, both in terms of us working with Tao and by us going at it alone. But, in short terms (unless I have forgotten something):

Amiga Component Model
Ami2d
AmiAudio
AmiDB
Bones Interface toolkit
Dianne Embedded device interface
Datatype system
Prism gui script language
Packager
Storage System
Utilitiy classes en mass

In addition to the above we have done quite a bit of custom work for clients, applications, host integration and host optimization.

Isn't anyone capable of coming up with concrete factual and verifiable answers rather than just bombarding us with fluff?

Well where would you verify the replies if you dont contact us (Amiga Inc.) about our products?? :-)

[Ohno]

The point is that nothing of what you say is verifiable. In order to veryfy it, one has to sign and NDA and SDA, and if they find out you were telling porkies the NDA prevents them from revealing it.

That's just it. Anything I say is unverifiable and so I should shut up and you are right? Wow.. you sure know how to win an argument.

Aren't those game cards about two years old? What proof do they contain of Amiga Inc's contribution?

Now they are not. Some games on it are earlier releases, but they have been rewritten to the newer version of the intent SDK (we're currently targetting 1.3) and some games were improved/enhanced in the mean time.
The actual cards were released this year.
Proof that they contain Amiga Inc.'s contributions... well, they are .ami-files... And I can sum up more stuff, but what good is it.. it's all unverifiable. There's nothing I can say that makes you believe. What is it you want? You want me to send you a .ami-file which you have no use for? You want me to create an MPEG of me actually installing and playing a game on my PDA? I can do that but you'll probably say it was faked, since you still can not validate if the game I was playing was ACTUALLY running in the Amiga-Anywhere environment.
It all comes down to you being allowed to put this technology down and the people using it having to shut up.

You're not thinking straight

I'm not? I'm glad you let me know. Although my mental wellbeing is a bit too far off topic here.

It is certainly not a problem if you want to create freeware applications for the Amiga-Anywhere environment and there is already some freeware available as well. We're currently using a freeware module-player for Amiga-Anywhere right now in our application, which may be used in any program  you want (freeware or commercial). I can download that software freely from Amiga Inc.'s own servers. And there are a lot more tools/contributions by other developers freely available. John Harris has shared a lot of his work as well. But again... unverifiable.. so I'm most probably lying to you.

Yes, they were. So quickly that I believe they were ported before the SDA was even introduced

They probably were. But you insisted no open source games/applications would ever be ported to the platform. These are two examples that proved you wrong. There are probably more in the work, but I don't know about project people are working on.. Sometimes I read something on the list. I know which projects I am working on and I know from the SDA list someone is working on an updated Quake which uses Amiga Inc's libraries for scaling/rotating etc to properly display on PDA's. But again... nothing verifiable... so it's all untrue.

Yes, you said so before. In fact that was the only thing you could come up with when I asked what made AmigaDE so special. That and the way TAO implemented something, which has nothing to do with Amiga Inc's contribution at all. Well, programmers having fun is very nice, but it's hardly enough to make a platform successful.

It's not the only thing I can come up with, but it's the only thing that matters to me.... the rest is just... well... unverifiable.
Apart from that. Amiga Inc. is not making intent special. Tao did that. Amiga is just adding to it and providing support (and they do a good job at it).

It's not the technology that sucks, it's the approach.

So we're back at the beginning. I agreed that I though Amiga Inc. could have been more forthcoming about the NDA/SDA issue when the SDK went on sale, but I loved the technology. Apparently we both like the technology. And we're also not far apart in regard to the NDA/SDA issue. The only difference is that I finally decided to sign the NDA and SDA and after that I did get satisfied by Amiga-Anywhere. But my satisfaction for the product I purchased is also unverifiable and thus I am lying and so is John Harris probably. It's all a big conspiracy to make you believe we are actually working with Amiga Inc.

No, it wasn't, and I'm getting pretty sick of people always making the same accusation when they don't want to answer my question.

Sorry if I misunderstood, but to me your post was provocative, the tone of voice was clearly ment to attack people who love a  platform. And I'm also obviously NOT trying to get away from answering your question. I made that remark at the bottom of quite a lengthy reply. Fact is that you don't like my answers. You want proof, beyond what I can give you.
Since everything I tell you will either be misinterpreted, ignored or (when it is not to your liking) clasified unverifiable.

I do like this platform and I AM willing to answer questions and get more people interested in the platform. If I didn't want to I wouldn't have put so much time into replying in these discussions. But if every statement I make is considered a lie then what can I do?

What is it that makes AmigaDE special?

intent

Why will it attract people from alternative solutions?

I don't know. I like the fact that I can develop programs as a bedroom programmer again and actually get them to market through Amiga Inc. This will not attract big coorporations, but it might be very nice for developers all around the world. Personally I would never be able to develop a game for a PDA, get it out on a gamecard (SD-card) and have it packaged and on the shelves of a large store in the USA. I don't even want to be bothered with anything else but writing software. I think this is true for more developers.

What makes it superior?

Superior to what? There are probably other solutions that provide better performance or better memory footprint or better ease of programming or less hassle (NDA/SDA). There might even be other solutions that provide more fun for developers. I don't think this solution is the best in all ways for all possible platforms. It doesn't have to be. I use java on a daily basis (I'm not just talking Amiga-Anywhere). Java is also not the superior solution in all cases, although it is used an awfull lot all over the world.

What have Amiga Inc's added to intent to make it worth signing their draconian SDA agreement?

The AA-engine itself (to fit it onto the gamecards), the ami-packager to deliver only the needed bits of your application into a .ami-package. Ami2d framework with things like sprites, scaling, linear transformations, etc. Amidb for storing highscores etc. on all possible devices, also  when using ROM-cards etc.  And a lot more. Is this verifiable? Well.. I could send it to you, but that would breach my NDA.. so NO.. it is not verifiable. And Amiga Inc.'s SDA agreement is most certainly NOT draconian.

Isn't anyone capable of coming up with concrete factual and verifiable answers rather than just bombarding us with fluff?

Sorry for all the fluff then. Again.. only words... nothing verifiable...

Regards,

Onno

[asian1]

>NDA, SDA etc

Hello
I read about CodeWarrior C++ compiler + IDE for Intent / AmigaDE, but the software cost US$ 5000.

Perhaps it is possible to use free GCC + IDE for creating applications programs for INTENT + AmigaDE.

I hope there will be no "hidden system calls", similar to the famous MS secrets to gain advantage over its competitor in apps market.

>CPU Power, Cell Phone, PDA.
Using INTENT / AmigaDE Asymmetric Remote processing capability and UTILITY Computing, perhaps it is possible to run various video editing, raytracing and CPU intensive program on PDA / Cellphone, even old classic AMIGAs.
The PDA / Cellphone can use remote processors and storage (connected through Internet / other ways) to run the program.

>Compatibility Intent1 - Intent2
There is a compatibility problem between VP1 (TAOS) with VP2 (INTENT1), but most C / C++ program can be re-compiled. However because VP2 have more virtual register than VP1, there are several in-compatible assembler programs. But this program can be re-written / modified.

[ghauber]

Hi Bill,

Just another one of these SDA developers piping in..

I think the lack of any product for the last two years says a lot more than those gamecards do.

Where have you been? On Mars or something?  Amiga Inc have released product in the last two years - look on the amiga anywhere web shop, or in CompUSA. Rest assured, this is just the start.  We've put in way too much time and effort into this for us to just throw our hands in the air and walk away from it all.  I've got one product in the web shop now, I've got a rewrite/upgrade of it nearly ready to be published, another game very close to being ready (the ice hockey game written in conjunction with Onno Scheffers), I have a DE specific Java API that has quite a lot of functionality that has been released (in beta form) to the other SDA developers, and I have several other projects in early planning stages.  I know there are quite a few other projects from other develoeprs ongoing, too.

What have Amiga Inc's added to intent to make it worth signing their draconian SDA agreement?

Various APIs have been added to intent, which makes things a lot nicer.  But that isn't what the SDA is about.  Yeah, we get earlier acess to the various APIs because we have made a serious  committment to Amiga, but they have also made committments to us in terms of support (and we have excellent support from Amiga Inc employees, they do their best to answer our questions and help us sort out issues as they arise), distribution of our software, beta testing, certification, and so on.  Not to mention a very generous revenue model considering all the other stuff they do for us.  Then there's also the SDA developer community, which is a great bunch of people.

If you have honest issues with the SDA, and you are considering publishing for the Amiga, then I strongly suggest you contact them directly and see what you can work out.

You can't decide when it goes on sale

Well, Amiga doesn't set a publishing deadline.  Amiga will not publish until a developer is 100% happy to give the go ahead to publish.  As to when Amiga publishes it after the app has passed QA, well, I would expect that they'd publish it as soon as practically possible, after all, the longer Amiga delays publishing an app, the longer it is until Amiga themselves receive any revenue from it...

you can't decide what licensing to release it under

Uh... yes, you can.  SDAers are currently releasing both commercial stuff, and free stuff.  There is nothing in the SDA preventing this.

you can't decide how it should be sold

Um, the purpose of the SDA is so that I don't have to think about how it should be sold.  If I wanted to do that, then I'd do the distribution and marketing myself.  As it is, I'm happy to leave it up to Amiga to do that. That's one of the reasons I signed the SDA.

you can't even realistically decide how much money you'd like to make out of it

Again, not true.  The developer sets the price, not Amiga.  Amiga does make suggestions, but final decision is up to the owner of the product.  Amiga never owns the product, ownership always remains with the developer.  So, *I* set the price of my apps (whether they be free, or some amount of money), I know upfront what Amiga's cut of the money is, and so I know exactly how much money I stand to make per unit sold.

they are entitled to hold your software back indefinitely until they feel it would be a good time to release it, even if that means years

Well, no again.  The SDA is *not* an indefinite agreement.  It has a definite term, can be renewed or not depending on whether or not the developer is satisfied with Amiga's performance.  There are  other conditions under which the SDA can be terminated early by the developer, too. (e.g. Amiga breaches the agreement).  Amiga *cannot* just indefinitely do what they please.  That is why there is an *agreement* that is signed by both Amiga and the developer.

well, if you don't like the deal they are offering you, there is nothing you can do about it.

Well, don't sign the SDA. Or, if you've already signed it (by which time you should know what deal Amiga is offering, otherwise why would you have signed up?) then if Amiga breaches the agreement you terminate it. Or you just don't renew when the agreement's term is up.

But no, the only way to find out what you are getting is to sign the NDA & SDA first.

Or, you could email Amiga and ask, or get feedback from other people who've signed the SDA.  Come on, it's not that hard, is it?

My only message to Amiga Inc and anyone else singing the praises of vapour technology is this: "Put up or shut up. Show us the results of your
work or stop talking about it."

We have - many of us who've signed an SDA have work already published, with more on the way.  Amiga has - they have published the DE Player, set up the Amiga Anywhere web shop, have a deal with MS to sell cards for the Pocket PC.  There's more to come.

Regards,

Gabriel

[amimonkey]

@Bill Hoggett

Bill, I too was very unsure about what AmigaDE is and its potential, but do you know what I did? Rather than bitch on a public forum, I got in contact with the guys who are involved with it.

Both Jonas and Gabriel were both incredibly friendly towards me, and I've gotta say that upon learning more about the APIs that Amiga Inc have been working on , I've become really quite excited about the technology that they've got!

Even though I can only (just) program in Java theres some fantastic facilites available.

Trust me, if you were actually interested about AmigaDE then you would have found this out by now... I recommend that anybody who has at least a slight interest in mobile technology should ask the people involved and find out more!

Thanks,

Ian Shurmer