Opinion Article : Amiga DE a Good Idea, Poor Execution

[toRus]

Mercy !!! Now Java is a failure ?

Java has been one of the success stories in history of modern computing together with Linux.

[System]

@bhoggett

I agree with you about Bill's confusion with Tao,
but I believe this was because Amiga was already
desperate for funds. At AmiWest 2000 Bill told us
that they paid 1.5-2.0 million more than they had
anticipated because of an unexpected bidding war
with the now defunct Dan? of the Boxer fiasco.
Bill with his unbridled enthusiasm made assumptions
about Intent that weren't warranted. Additioally
almost all of his efforts had to go into finding
additional capital.

This in no way absolves Bill of responsibilty for
Amiga's problems, but seen in this light, one might
be a little less harsh in his judgement of the
situation. Panic is a mistake creating environment.

I have actually been amazed at Amiga's ability to
survive this long considering the difficulty of
the situation. It is a testament to the community,
Bill's drive to survive, Eyetech, Hyperion and many
other unnamed people.

I personally am loking forward to the release of
OS4, and I do hope that problems with the DE can be
resolved. It still could be a hell of a way to go.

But then again only TimeWillTell

[System]

Maybe AI should have concentrated on OS4.
That way they would have had a real product much sooner.

Instead they went for a business plan that needed a
5+ year gestation period.

So, will AI only survive if DE is a success ?
Or do AI get money from Hyperion for OS4 licences;
if Hyperion wait a bit longer AI will disappear and Hyperion
will be in the position of doing what they want with AmigaOS, at the risk of weakening their user base.

Rather than suggesting Hyperion are/would deliberately starve AI of OS4 licence fees, I'm wondering if Hyperion has a contractual agreement to start shipping OS4 by a
certain date ? And what is that date if so.

koan

[MarkTime]

gorsh,

I am almost tired of speculating on Amiga...

whenever I do anything in this market, I get confused.
Like I wanted to get OS 3.9 to evaluate ReAction for a project I am toying with.

Only to find out, OS 3.9 doesn't come with Amiga Forever, and on Cloanto's website, they say they cannot get a license to include 3.9 since it
would add too much to the cost.

Well, the amizilla team speculates that at least
this will help Amiga, Inc. by driving up sales of
3.9....

and then someone says, well Amiga, Inc. never
got a dime from 3.9 sales.

WTF...who knows how to help these people.
if H&P never paid them a dime, then why not
license it, (*if for nothing else, for ONE DIME*)
to Cloanto, and get wider distribution of 3.9

heck if Reaction is the way to go, how about
getting part of the market using reaction....

of course, who knows what the truth is about
their licensing schemes...but that is exactly
the point...no one can help these people,
even if they really wanted too.....

[bhoggett]

@Ohno

Tao doesn't HAVE to support memory protection for it to become a reality. Amiga Inc. could still build their own OS on top of this virtual machine, which does support memory protection. Not that I think they are... but they COULD

Well, yes, but we're getting off the beaten track here. At the time we're talking about, there was no suggestion of Amiga Inc. writing their own OS from scratch, only building features on top of TAO's existing and future base. Memory protection was just something they assumed TAO would add.

@TimeWillTell

Panic is a mistake creating environment.

I think you've just summed up Amiga Inc's entire existence from inception to present day.

I have actually been amazed at Amiga's ability to survive...

They've done it by essentially hibernating. The trouble with hibernation is that it's not a productive time (by definition) and yet it still consumes available reserves, albeit at a much reduced rate.  Animals that hibernate for too long never wake up. I fear that Amiga Inc. have long since passed into a vegetative state, with recovery highly unlikely.

It's probably kinder to switch off the life support and let them pass away with whatever little dignity they have left.

[bhoggett]

@koan

Maybe AI should have concentrated on OS4.

They couldn't. OS4 was never going to attract any investment, so it was a non-starter as a business proposition.

It still is.

So, will AI only survive if DE is a success ?

It's hard to see any scenario in which AI would survive. Their goose is cooked, I fear.

Or do AI get money from Hyperion for OS4 licences;

Theoretically, they do, but they have probably already collected most of it in advance via the coupon/club/t-shirt silliness.  It's unlikely OS4 will ever sell many more copies than the number of coupons bought. In fact, I seriously doubt AI's share per copy of OS4 comes anywhere near $50, but that's just me speculating.

(Apologies to those who read my comment before I edited it. I had spelt "t-shirt" without the 'r'. A freudian slip, I assure you.)
 ;-)

[System]

@bhoggett

They couldn't. OS4 was never going to attract any investment, so it was a non-starter as a business proposition.

If Genesi managed to make a go of it then maybe AI could have done or are you suggesting that it's a totally non viable business model and Genesi are on borrowed time too ?

It's unlikely OS4 will ever sell many more copies than the number of coupons bought

There's at least one person who would consider buying OS4 who didn't get a t-shirt (or not as it turned out).

koan

[Bodie]

It's unlikely OS4 will ever sell many more copies than the number of coupons bought.

I just ordered an A1 yet did not touch the coupon.  ;-)

[bhoggett]

@koan

If Genesi managed to make a go of it then maybe AI could have done or are you suggesting that it's a totally non viable business model and Genesi are on borrowed time too ?

That question would require a two-part answer:

(1) My opinion: both AOS4 and MOS face bleak futures as self-financing projects. If Genesi were to rely on the sales of MorphOS, I would say their future was likely to be spectacularly short.

(2) AFAIK, Genesi are nowhere near as reliant on VC for their financing. so they don't have to persuade as many people that their business model is a profitable one. I believe they are basing most of their optimism on the STB market, but in my experience that's a volatile and changeable area, where it's equally as easy to get dumped as it is to find potential partners. With STBs, not only is the equipment largely disposable, so is the software base and the partnerships involved.

There's at least one person who would consider buying OS4 who didn't get a t-shirt (or not as it turned out).

Sure, and I know there are a few who bought the coupons but have no interest in OS4. We're talking about a bigger picture than that though.

[Kronos]

@koan

a)Genesi is run by BB's "private" money.

b) Lot's of people who bought a coupon allready
left for good, and some have bought both ones
(talking about the Party-Pack and "I am Yoda"
coupons here).

Roughly 3000 people.

Yes I think they will sell more than that, but
mostly for the Cyberstorm, and AInc's take on
OS4 on it's own is very small (atleast that is
what B.H. said over a year ago).

Their take on the A1 is everybodies guess, but
I would say they would need to sell atleast
5000 copies for real Amigas (only possible if
and when the BPPC-version appears) and another
5000 A1s (which I don't see to happen), just to
break even on all the collected money. Add handling
and the cost for those t-shirts to it and those
numbers rise even more.

But back to the topic:
The DE is a good, but useless idea, cos noone
wants to let his SW run ony ANY HW without any
controll, and if you do controll the HW it runs
on like it has been done with the gamepack, you
could have just used a (maybe even free) portiblity-
layer like SDL,QT or similar and compile for
every target you want to support.

Restricting an new "plattform" with a SDA is only
a good idea

a)If you got the resources to get
a basic collection from the start (like it has
been done with game-consoles).

b) Got something special about your plattform like
being a "real" RTOS (QNX for example.

c) Allready have a huge installed user-base
(again game-consoles).

AInc hasn't anthing of that, and thats why
there is so little SW really available, and
most of it just medicore games.

[YttriumOx]

Ohno wrote:
@bhoggett

I personally considder intent to be a platform just like I considder a PC and an Amiga or Mac to be a platform.

Slight correction if I may.  Intent is an OS, Elate is a platform.
AmigaDE mainly coexists and sits on top of intent at this point in time, however elements of it do not and there is no necessity to code for DE using intent if you code in pure VP-ASM (coding in Java, C++ or anything else will run on intent however).

@All slagging off DE
I find it interesting noone has answered AmiMonkey's question - who has actually used it?  It seems everyone who detracts it has never used it and those of us who do use it love it.  I myself use it on a daily basis on my Dell Axim and would have little interest in my Axim were it not for DE.

Regards,
Ben de Waal
AKA Yttrium Oxide
SDA DE Developer, AmigaOne Owner, strong follower of Amiga Inc - but certainly not blind.

[bhoggett]

@YttriumOx

I find it interesting noone has answered AmiMonkey's question - who has actually used it?

I have two copies of the SDK, one for Windows and one for Linux. I've certainly spent some time 'using' it, but found nothing to get all that excited about. It was the concept that was more interesting than the actual implementation at this stage.

However, I refused to sign either an NDA or an SDA on the principle that I was not informed these were required until after I had parted with my money, and so in consequence I have received neither updates nor support despite being a fully registered user.  The result of that is that the two boxes have become doorstops, and the only copy of intent on my system comes from TAO - though I don't have much use for it anyway.

The question should not be how many of use have used it, but what do you use it for? What do you run on it? What does it do better than the alternatives? What real use is it to anyone?

[Ohno]

Slight correction if I may. Intent is an OS, Elate is a platform.

I stand corrected, you are right.

[Ohno]

I have two copies of the SDK, one for Windows and one for Linux. I've certainly spent some time 'using' it, but found nothing to get all that excited about. It was the concept that was more interesting than the actual implementation at this stage.

I was like that for a long time as well and I refused to sign an NDA and SDA for quite some time as well (mostly because I was to lazy to fax them over). It wasn't until I signed both the NDA and the SDA _and_ I got involved in an actual project working with VP-coding that I really started to enjoy it and see the beauty of it. Especially the way Tao implemented java into the environment is very smart and powerfull. It is just pretty cool to be able to write high performance java-classes in vp assembly  :-D

To be completely honest, I too thought that I had thrown away my money (I ordered a version for Windows and a version for Linux as well). And I do think people who are not under NDA deserve to get a bit more for their money.
Even when I signed an NDA I though there was not much to it at that time, since the actual fun stuff was only accessible to people  under SDA.

Everyone is free to choose wether they sign the NDA & SDA. Personally I didn't regret my choice for a second so far. But I can understand people objecting to it and I also think Amiga Inc. could have been much clearer on what their NDA/SDA-demands before people would purchase the SDK.

Regards,

Onno

[bhoggett]

@Ohno

Everyone is free to choose wether they sign the NDA & SDA. Personally I didn't regret my choice for a second so far. But I can understand people objecting to it and I also think Amiga Inc. could have been much clearer on what their NDA/SDA-demands before people would purchase the SDK.

My opinion of AmigaDE is not based on my beef about the NDA/SDA. It's based on my assessment of the situation, bearing in mind the information available to me.

The reason AI weren't clear about the NDA/SDA requirements is simple: they hadn't even formulated them. These were things that were made up as they went along, which is why they have given me at least four different stories about their policy at various times, pretty much all of which turned out to be BS.

However, I've noticed that everyone who says how cool AmigaDE is fails to come up with any real reason why it is cool or why it's better than any alternatives. Since I'm on the outside and will stay that way, I'd be interested to know.

[Ohno]

However, I've noticed that everyone who says how cool AmigaDE is fails to come up with any real reason why it is cool or why it's better than any alternatives. Since I'm on the outside and will stay that way, I'd be interested to know.

I thought I did tell you before. I like it because I love the technology. The clever way of implementing java in it (I write a lot of java-classes in assembly). I love the fun of it.
I love it for the same reason I love to run Amithlon. I love it for the same reason I'm here at Amiga.org.
Why am I interested in Amiga OS while I get much more functionality with either Windows or Linux? It is a feeling. You either like it or you don't.
Amiga-Anywhere will not be for everyone, just like AmigaOS is not for everyone or Linux is not for everone..

I used to love programming assembly on the commodore 64. I liked C-programming on the Amiga and I hated assembly-programming on X86.
And now I love programming in the AA-environment. Why? I don't know.. sometimes you just like something. Probably a matter of taste.

I'm not trying to convince you to like it and I respect the fact that you DON't like it after trying it. I don't respect people slagging it off without even actually looking at it.

Regards,

Onno