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Offline hnl_dk

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2003, 05:02:37 PM »
Quote
MorphOS was/IS a powerpc solution and it shipped last year.


@MarkTime

MorphOS shiped as a Beta-version last year ... if you read some of the other posts, AmigaOS 4.0 also "shiped" last year (November)!

Now you might say that MorphOS was public last year ... but you could still only buy it with the Betatester board!

AmigaOS 4.0 has not been public, but it looks like it's out there - in Beta state.
Best regards,
Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark]...
 

Offline mahen

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2003, 05:14:11 PM »
hnl_dk: please excuse me but as the 68k emulation is not integrated yet in OS4 (was said in the interview), you really can't say OS 4 is in an usable state. (essential component)

MorphOS is in beta (= usable, working) state since 2002 or even 2001 I think.

You really can't compare that...
 

Offline zacman

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2003, 05:16:30 PM »
>MorphOS shiped as a Beta-version last year ... if
>you read some of the other posts, AmigaOS 4.0
>also "shiped" last year (November)!

Well I think there is at least some difference if there is one OS "shipping" as PPC version running only on PPC hardware and a OS "shipping" as 68k version running only on 68k hardware.

With that argumentation you can also say that
MorphOS shipped in early 2000 (as ppc version) or it
was "in beta in 1997".
 

Offline System

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2003, 05:23:10 PM »
@ MarkTime, Zacman and Mahem

(Is it really necessary to turn another positive AmigaOS thread into a "MorphOS is better" flamewar?)

AmigaOS3.9, AmigaXL and Amithlon could not have been developed without Amiga Inc's approval. They bought the Amiga IP from Gateway for 4.5 million USD. I believe no other company could or would have raised such kind of money to acquire Amiga's assets.

Also note that AmigaXL, Amithlon and MorphOS all host their Amiga(-like) environments on top of "alien" secondary kernels (QNX Neutrino, Linux and Quark). The approach Hyperion is taking us, is by greatly further enhancing the new Amiga ExecSG kernel.

Of course alot of technology could have been shared between MorphOS and AmigaOS4 (and  x86 emulators), for some code this is already the case. Sadly instead of walking a path of dialogue and tolerance, a path of "war" and confrontation was chosen. Any chance of cooperation is thus likely lost for the immediate future.

One thing is for sure, Amiga Inc will have to defend their IP, for which they paid millions.

Although MorphOS or a new Amithlon solution would be nice as well, I greatly prefer to have AmigaOS4. I am willing to patiently wait until a qualitly AmigaOS solution is finished. (Eat your hearts out  ;-) )
 

Offline alx

Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2003, 05:51:21 PM »
@MarkTime

Amithlon and AmigaOS XL were never really intended to be used a main "new" AmigaOS.  With some effort, AmigaOS XL could possibly have been used but what then?  AmigaOS x86.  No compatibility with PPC accelerators.  No compatibility with PPC apps.  OS4 is meant as a bridge, not a clean break with the past.  Besides, a fully native solution makes more sense to me than dragging stuff though a layer of emulation, however subtle.

A inc didn't pick from a variety of systems.  They wanted to make AmigaOS, and found a contractor to do that.  Besides, MorphOS has a different agenda (Quark - no DE integration).  If A inc had managed to force Genesi to make AmigaOS, two things could have happened.  Either A inc makes MorphOS what they want it to be, which the MorphOS people would hate, or Genesi carries on as they would - making MorpOS, not AmigaOS.

If Hyperion had really "felt the pressure" as you say, we could have ended up with a half-baked AmigaOS that no one likes.  Sorry, but when you've waited for ages, a year or so doesn't make that much difference.

Don't take this as a flame.  I don't mind MorphOS at all - it seems like a good product to me.  But it's just not AmigaOS!

Offline System

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2003, 06:35:41 PM »
"All could have been the direction a new AmigaOS
could have taken. We could have done a QNX
based solution, with initially the os running in emulation but with native extensions.Amithlon
did the same thing with Linux, and many native
extensions were developed."

Yeah! lets all use EMU's yahoo! throw OS4.0 in the bin Hyperion! it's waste of time.

"Amiga, Inc. chose Hyperion's solution, of the four choices Amiga had--they chose the one solution that didn't ship. The other 3 shipped."

What?? are you saying that OS4.0 is trashed and it never will be shiped/deliverd/released/launched??!!!!

"Thats not just an unlucky coincidence. Hyperion didn't ship because its not their main business, they aren't particularly concerned when it ships, and they feel the market is captive."

Yeah, they just by a coincidence found them self porting games and now this!! porting OS, what the hell!!! it's CRAZY!!!

"I've thought about it..."
Whats that smell?

"yes I am glad they felt enough pressure to actually get down from their high horse long enough to speak....but thats not good enough."

This is getting really wierd, are the using horses in this day and time??? F*%up isn't it.

creative individuals?! Nah who needs them?
 

Offline Bezzen

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2003, 08:07:50 PM »
For some reason I have good faith in Hyperion and I think they will deliver a great product.  And I've waited this long, I don't care that it's late and I don't care that MorphOS is "out" :-)

(I have nothing against MorphOS, it's probably a great product, but I'm going the AmigaOS path... or both if I'll be able to run them on the same system)
 

Offline zacman

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2003, 08:28:35 PM »
>AmigaOS3.9, AmigaXL and Amithlon could not
>have been developed without Amiga Inc's approval.
>They bought the Amiga IP from Gateway for 4.5
>million USD. I believe no other company could or
>would have raised such kind of money to acquire
>Amiga's assets.

Yes, and they have had the wrong management and
therefore "Boom.". Happens really often, quite
normal. So what?

>One thing is for sure, Amiga Inc will have to defend
>their IP, for which they paid millions.

And lost all. Too bad. Which Amiga company will be
next?
 

Offline System

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2003, 09:08:33 PM »
@ Zacman

Quote
Yes, and they have had the wrong management and "Boom.".  


I must have missed this "Boom". There is no denying that Amiga Inc has been weak with regard to PR in the past. But IMO there is still a good chance to make up for this.

There are competent people working for Amiga Inc and they have good intentions for making up for past mistakes.

Quote
And lost all. Too bad. Which Amiga company will be next?


They still own the Amiga IP, they still have good products under development and have formed solid partnerships. Of course Amiga Inc would have liked to do alot more in the past, provided they had the resources.
 

Offline MarkTime

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2003, 09:09:48 PM »
Heck, I've never seen MorphOS in my life....this isn't a morphOS is better thread.

My point is simply this, Hyperion hasn't done a good job by any measure I'm aware of...., they haven't even done the 'best we could hope for under the circumstances job'.

Another company could have done more, in less time, and there were many other companies hoping to do this job.  Hyperion must have had the best sales pitch, Amiga Inc. bought into it, but it hasn't delivered much in the way of OS 4 sales....thats for sure.

We won't ever have the opportunity to directly compare Hyperion's Amiga OS 4, with a theoretical another-path-taken Amiga OS 4...its all theory and speculation.

But while we are reminding everyone that Microsoft was  year late with Windows 95....lets not also forget that most companies are not late all the time...being late is still considered the 'bad thing' to do, not a 'good thing'.  

It doesn't mean bugs are being worked out, Hyperion has yet to guarantee a bug free product, nor will they.
Nor can I believe its a long beta testing cycle, when they are still adding features at this late date, and the emu hasn't even been integrated yet, and everyone on both sides, a lot of testing can only start after that is complete...so its not a super long testing cycle, and we all know it...

Its just they didn't have the resources to deliver the product in the time they promised.

And thats not a GOOD thing...its a bad thing.
 

Offline ShadesOfGrey

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2003, 09:16:19 PM »
{Emerging from the lurking shadows.}

@MarkTime

Quote
All could have been the direction a new AmigaOS could have taken. We could have done a QNX based solution, with initially the os running in emulation but with native extensions. Amithlon did the same thing with Linux, and many native extensions were developed.


Quote
From ANN thread.

Amiga, Inc had many directions they *could* have gone. Remember QNX? They could have stuck with that....remember Linux? The could have stuck with that....remember MorphOS? It was an option, even at the time Hyperion was selected.


First a couple questions.

When you speak of QNX and Linux, are you referring to the Gateway era plans?  Or are you talking about AmigaOS XL and Amithlon/Umilator?  I'm asking because depending on your answer, you, MarkTime, can ignore half my response.


If you are talking about the Gateway era plans, you might want to consider this...  While Gateway is not Amiga Inc. anymore, Gateway may have burned that bridge for Amiga Inc. when Gateway set its sites on Linux.  

Or if the bridge is still there, Amiga Inc. does not have what it take to support the weight of QNX/QSSL.  After all, Gateway is a 'big' player in the 'PC' world.  They had the resources to insure such a deal.  Amiga Inc. on the other hand is a dwarf looking to be a giant (I've been playing too many RPGs lately).  Arguably, Amiga Inc. is no where near achieving such a monumental transformation.

As for Gateway's Linux plan...  Well, I don't think they were looking to do anything other than offer a Linux Distro named Amiga.  I suppose it's possible that Gateway might have tried what Apple did with Mac OS X.  But I Personally doubt it.  After all, wouldn't Amiga Inc. just continued with what Gateway started instead of looking to Tao for another solution?

Besides, even if Gatway had been working toward a Mac OS X like solution.  Gateway either didn't get anywhere, was frightened off the idea by Microsoft, or have retained much of that strategy for their potential future benefit.

So put simply, to blame Amiga Inc. for what Gateway did not do is unfair.  If you want to criticize Amiga Inc., then stick to the promise and promises they have not made manifest (damn those RPGs).


As to AmigaOS XL and Amithlon/Umilator (and AmigaForever for that matter)...  These were never intended to succeed AmigaOS.  They were(/are) all bridging solutions for AmigaOS user who no longer use 'classic' Amiga hardware but still wish to use Amiga software.  The idea being that once new Amiga hardware (A1) and OS (AmigaOS 4) were released, it would entice those users to adopt the new platform.  Otherwise they could continue using their 'legacy' solutions in an emulated environment.

Now of course all three solutions (incl. AmigaForever) could be developed into a next generation Amiga OS.  But as far as I can recall, both AmigaOS XL and Amithlon/Umilator were introduced after Amiga Inc. and Hyperion had negotiated an Amiga OS 4 deal.  So this part of the argument would be predicated on Amiga Inc. and Hyperion having broken ranks for whatever reason(s).

[If I'm wrong about the exact chronology of the Amiga Inc./Hyperion deal and the release of AmigaOS XL & Amithlon/Umilator.  That would obviously makes the following argument much weaker.]

Amithlon/Umilator, being the most likely candidate, has been shelved due to a dispute between Bernd Meyer and H&P.  This situation was further exacerbated by Amiga Inc.'s inaction on two fronts (The whole H&P violating AI IP, forcing Bernie to pull the plug on Amithlon.  And not giving Bernie clear indication that AI would back him if he went up against H&P).

AmigaForever could eventually be morphed into an Amithlon/Umilator like solution.  After all, Amithlon/Umilator was born from the UAE code base (!IIRC!).  Of course, there's the issue of Amiga Inc.'s desire to protect its IP and the open source nature of UAE.  Some how both would have to be reconciled.  Plus, how long would it take to get something equivalent to Amithlon/Umilator up and running.

As for AmigaOS XL...  Again there's this whole IP dispute hanging in the air between Amiga Inc. and H&P.  Then there's the question of exactly how QSSL figures into the mix.  Would Amiga Inc. (or relevant third party) continue using QNX as is and snapping in an emulation layer (whether it be a true emulation engine or API translator) to QNX?  Would Amiga Inc. license QNX as a kernel?  Would QSSL agree to either?  If all these were answered in the affirmative, how long would all this take?  And then what becomes of AmigaDE/Anywhere?

[Whether you like it or not, AmigaDE/Anywhere (aka Tao intent) has been the 'big' thing since Amiga Inc. began its current incarnation.  I doubt that Amiga Inc. is in any position to dump Tao if QSSL demanded it.  On the other hand QSSL does appear to have a 'friendly' relationship with Tao.  So QSSL and Tao might be willing to cooperate with Amiga Inc.  But to what extent?]

This all assumes that 'AmigaOS Forever Umilate XL 4' would target the x86 as its primary CPU platform.    We still have to answer, how long it would take to include PowerUP and/or WarpUP compatability to an x86 based solution?

If we assume that PPC were the primary CPU platform.  Well, then how much more time would it take to get any of the above alternatives running on PPC?

The only other 'viable' alternative to AmigaOS 4 is MorphOS.  But we all already know that MorphOS could never be an official AmigaOS successor...  Not unless Amiga Inc. bought Genesi or Genesi bought Amiga Inc.  At no point was there ever enough water under that bridge to put out the fire burning it.


In my estimation, all the (remotely possible) solutions above would have likely taken just as long as the current AmigaOS 4 project has (if not longer).  Especailly if they were required to operate on PPC processors.

Feel free to argue this anyway you like.  As for me, I think I'll...

{Retreat to the lurking shadows.}
Unless otherwise explicitly stated, this message is not meant to affirm nor deny, defend nor offend any faction within the \\\'Amiga\\\' Community.
 

Offline downix

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2003, 09:21:58 PM »
Quote
MorphOS shiped as a Beta-version last year


The first public Beta of MorphOS was released a few years ago.  Last year was released the final-Beta of MorphOS, basically the finished product sans a few components that we do not feel are ready for prime time.
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Offline downix

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2003, 09:28:54 PM »
Quote
Is it really necessary to turn another positive AmigaOS thread into a "MorphOS is better" flamewar?


I have not seen any flamewars here, but I have seen fires started by people claiming one thing which was false (MorphOS shipped as beta last year) which then needs to be corrected (MorphOS was in beta long before last year).  The need to correct inaccurate information should not be labeled as a "flamewar" unless you are attempting to insight one yourself.  and I know you don't do that, do you Mike?
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Offline System

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2003, 09:47:36 PM »
@ MarkTime

Quote
Heck, I've never seen MorphOS in my life....this isn't a morphOS is better thread.

My point is simply this, Hyperion hasn't done a good job by any measure I'm aware of...., they haven't even done the 'best we could hope for under the circumstances job'.


Interesting, so why do you bring up MorphOS as an example for why Hyperion has't done a good job, if you don't really know that much about this product?

 :-?

Quote
Another company could have done more, in less time, and there were many other companies hoping to do this job.


Look MarkTime, MorphOS has been under development for many years now and only recently did this project really take off, of course with the usage of large parts of AROS source code (which also has been under development for a very long time).

Just like with Amithlon, the Amiga Inc team was impressed when they first evaluated MorphOS. But no proper agreement could be reached. At the time a true AmigaOS port to a PPC platform looked a too immense task. But eventually H&P did see oppertunities, only to back out of this agreement some time later.

During the relative short time Hyperion has been managing the AmigaOS4 project, they have written a fully functional modern Exec PPC kernel, managed to get the entire AmigaOS4 team working together, created a BootROM and ported LinuxPPC for Mai, realised great partnerships (i.e. SciTech), released new Amiga and Mac games and have done their absolute best to keep the community up to date. These people are fantastic and AmigaOS4 will be the biggest update AmigaOS has ever seen! :-o

Quote
It doesn't mean bugs are being worked out, Hyperion has yet to guarantee a bug free product, nor will they.


With regard to larger hardware and software development projects there is no such thing as a guaranteed bug free product.

Quote
Its just they didn't have the resources to deliver the product in the time they promised.

And thats not a GOOD thing...its a bad thing.


But actually a *very* common thing within the tech industry. Their initial believes with regard to development times have been proven wrong mainly due to unforseen additional work (Mai contract work, additional desirable features, etc).
 

Offline hnl_dk

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2003, 09:51:06 PM »
Quote
Poster: downix Date: 2003/2/20 22:21:58

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MorphOS shiped as a Beta-version last year
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The first public Beta of MorphOS was released a few years ago. Last year was released the final-Beta of MorphOS, basically the finished product sans a few components that we do not feel are ready for prime time.


Still MorphOS was still in Betastate!!!

Ok, there where releases before ... AmigaOS has been there a long time ... whats the point?

What you call "the final-Beta of MorphOS" was still a Beta version ... so MorphOS wasn't released last year! MorphOS was still only for Betatesters, so MorphOS wasn't released last year!

So at your point a product is released, when the betatesters have got their almost finished product? Then congrats to Hyperion, it sounds like Some Betabesters are using AmigaOS 4.0 Beta every day on their machines, so it must have been released .. no I don't think so!
Best regards,
Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark]...
 

Offline System

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Re: Interview with Ben Hermans
« Reply #29 from previous page: February 20, 2003, 10:00:07 PM »
@ Downix

Quote
which then needs to be corrected (MorphOS was in beta long before last year).


The development process of MorphOS cannot be well compared to the AmigaOS4 development process. With MorphOS there was a more usual development process, where first the fundamental parts were finished and then over a large period of time component after component were being developed and added.

With regard to AmigaOS4 all the components were being worked on almost simultaniously, so i.e. AmiDock's main development process may well have been largely finished before PPCBoot or ExecSG.

Quote
The need to correct inaccurate information should not be labeled as a "flamewar" unless you are attempting to insight one yourself. and I know you don't do that, do you Mike?


I saw that MorphOS was being brought up within this AmigaOS4 thread, and history learns us that this generally results into childish flamewars. So I thought I should *try* to exstinguish the little sparks before they turn into flames.  :-)