AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site

[jj]

I cant even be bothered to look at the site

Love live Amiga, they derserve a break, would u have put in all this money and effort into a platform that has been officcaly dead for 10 years.

I want an A1 and I want it like yesterday

[Rodney]

There were 8 signatures who posted abusive comments and spoofed other persons. Should obvious morons attempting to disrupt a petition process be on a list of names when they obviously don't endorse what the petition in question says?

I could of course have asked petitiononline.com to keep the garbage, it wouldn't have mattered much since it naturally would be removed when the list is compiled and handed over. It just looked bad, and some people seem to think that they have to agree with other signatories' "optional comments" in addition to the petition which they're signing.

Yes there were people who wrote some offensive language, and I wouldn’t blame anyone for taking them off the list. However it seemed that I saw many many more people who apposed the petition that had signed it last time. They now seem to be gone.

If my memory serves me correctly then those who did have a different opinion then what the poll was set up to address were taken off not because they were offensive but because their opinions weren’t inline with what the poll is trying to get across.

Huh? What are you talking about?

It might have done some good to keep some of those signatures on there, because let’s say you had 17 for the current licence and 350 for no licence at all... Then that’s 17/350 for the current system. That shows a HUGE number of persons (percentage wise) that share similar feelings about Amiga Incs hardware licensing.

Now, with those gone, it just seems like 350 people or so. Not 0/350, just 350 out of all those in the community that could have voted, which is among the thousands. So, therefor, it kinda looks like 350/thousands_of_potential_signers - so now, it looks as if the majority of the people want the current system.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it is a stupid idea. If you believe in something go for it, but if your deleting people of the board, that have an opposing point of view, then that’s not right. Not that I said you are, but if my memory serves me correct, it looks like there are a lot less apposing points of views now.

[Rodney]

There were 8 signatures who posted abusive comments and spoofed other persons. Should obvious morons attempting to disrupt a petition process be on a list of names when they obviously don't endorse what the petition in question says?

I could of course have asked petitiononline.com to keep the garbage, it wouldn't have mattered much since it naturally would be removed when the list is compiled and handed over. It just looked bad, and some people seem to think that they have to agree with other signatories' "optional comments" in addition to the petition which they're signing.

Yes there were people who wrote some offensive language, and I wouldn’t blame anyone for taking them off the list. However it seemed that I saw many many more people who apposed the petition that had signed it last time. They now seem to be gone.

If my memory serves me correctly then those who did have a different opinion then what the poll was set up to address were taken off not because they were offensive but because their opinions weren’t inline with what the poll is trying to get across.

Huh? What are you talking about?

It might have done some good to keep some of those signatures on there, because let’s say you had 17 for the current licence and 350 for no licence at all... Then that’s 17/350 for the current system. That shows a HUGE number of persons (percentage wise) that share similar feelings about Amiga Incs hardware licensing.

Now, with those gone, it just seems like 350 people or so. Not 0/350, just 350 out of all those in the community that could have voted, which is among the thousands. So, therefor, it kinda looks like 350/thousands_of_potential_signers - so now, it looks as if the majority of the people want the current system.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it is a stupid idea. If you believe in something go for it, but if your deleting people of the board, that have an opposing point of view, then that’s not right. Not that I said you are, but if my memory serves me correct, it looks like there are a lot less apposing points of views now.

[System]

@gadget master and seehund

I didn't say anarchy I said Fascism, theres a difference and if you don't understand what it is then you shouldn't comment. Caling me ignorant because you didn't read my post doesn't prove anything of the sort.

From dictionary.com

   1.  A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship.

You might not think my comment wasn't constructive but why not? Why can't you look at my comment deconstruct it and refute it, I don't see anyone doing that here, is it because you don't know how,  or because you can't.

I just see this petition as a petty minded attempt to undermine anything constructive in the Amiga Community, suddenly a bunch of people suddenly think they know all about computers and markets, and whats best for Amiga.

They had their chance all through the time when Amiga had no owners and no direction and they just sat on their laurels and did nothing, and now when its finally moving they are throwing every spanner in the works they can. Damaging the very companys and people that kept the Amiga alive.

As for the counter petition I really couldn't be bothered to start one, I don't feel strongly enough about this, certainly not to produce an equally ridiculous petiton, with virtually no real clout. The petitioning system on that site isn't rigourous enough, anyone can go on there and spoof signings, create imaginary people. Which asks the question how can any of the signatorys be considered genuine. Its less useful than a vote because at least then you see both sides of the story.

I am only here to make people think, I play devils advocate.

My issue with petitions is that they are one sided and someone does have to pick up the alternative view to support it.

But what happens if they don't? Does that mean that there is no one opposed to it, do the most fanatical people win because they are willing to make an effort to publicise their cause?

As for being narrow minded your the one being narrow minded i'm giving my opinion and your saying because I don't agree I should shut up. They are entitled to their opinion, and I respect that, just the fact they've made the effort to publicise there case shows they deserve to be respected. But that doesn't make them immune to critism, even if they don't listen to it.

I'm not worried they will get their way what happens in the Amiga market will have no real effect on me, if it all breaks down I will be better off finacially and I'll be able to sit back and smuggly say i told you so.

What annoys me is the way these things work.  The way society works,  the way the Amiga Community works, the way the whole world works.

And your post just reinforces that.

[Rodney]

He does have a point in that only one side is heard. I think  a Poll with an area so that people can write down exactly how they fell is more important.

Kinda like a corss between the petition and a poll.

That way people who like Amiga Incs liecen feel as if they can have a say.

Petitions more or less say - sign this if you agree, or atleast thats what everyone expects them to be. But a poll makes everyone feel welcome!!

[anarchic_teapot]

If my memory serves me correctly then those who did have a different opinion then what the poll was set up to address were taken off not because they were offensive but because their opinions weren’t inline with what the poll is trying to get across.

It isn't a poll, it's a petition. I wonder what kind of twisted logic leads someone who disagrees with the object of a petition signing it anyway. If those signatures have also been removed, even though abusive language wasn't involved, this is hardly the stuff of which police states are made.

In any case, if I had a fiver for the number of times I've seen people rant and rave about something being "unfair" and "dictatorial", before signing on the dotted line along with everyone else...

[System]

Ok lets try this again.

My point is not that the idea/arguments aren't valid.

My point is that I don't feel that the right way of representing this idea has been taken.

My point was that Petitions have an element of fascism in them. They are one sided they strengthen a view, they do not represent any alternatives.

I question why this form was used to put forward this view was it so opposing comments/view points couldn't be incorperated into the argument.

In a democracy surely these kinds of methods shouldn't be needed, A poll would be more enlightening because it would provide both sides of the story.
Why wasn't this idea presented as a poll? perhaps because the creator didn't feel that the results would end up supporting his view.

That is my point.

And apart from that the petition online site doesn't do petitions in a very good way. there is no way people can be held to account for their views because anyone can post anything they want. its not secure. And the petition can be editted, to remove anything that the creator doesn't want to include, doesn't sound very good.
When you can remove anyone from the list what makes it questionable that the final petition has any value. You are basically removing all the points of using a petition in the first place. As a way to express your views and make them count, because if someone doesn't want you to have signed it they can just remove you.

Hope that cleared a few things up.

[GadgetMaster]

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship

To deconstruct your post as yo would like me to:

So you think petions = Facism (Very broad minded and intelligent of you)

To put you straight dear fellow I will use your source of definitions i.e. Dictionary.com

pe·ti·tion   Pronunciation Key  (p-tshn)
n.  A solemn supplication or request to a superior authority; an entreaty.
A formal written document requesting a right or benefit from a person or group in authority.
Law.
A formal written application requesting a court for a specific judicial action: a petition for appeal.
The judicial action asked for in any such request.
Something requested or entreated.

So how does making a request to a higher authority equal fascism?

I just see this petition as a petty minded attempt to undermine anything constructive in the Amiga Community, suddenly a bunch of people suddenly think they know all about computers and markets, and whats best for Amiga.

Thats you opinion right ? Nothing constructive about that. you have failed to follow up with any sound reasoning.

As for the counter petition I really couldn't be bothered to start one, I don't feel strongly enough about this,

The petitioning system on that site isn't rigourous enough, anyone can go on there and spoof signings, create imaginary people

So if you felt strongly enough about it and the petition system was rigorous you would then start a petition? something you call facsism.  So does that make you a Fascist or a hypocrite?

remember I am not defending the content of the petition , because I dont agree with it. What I stand by are my comments that defend the right for someone to set up petitions.

You are the one thinking like a dictator and you are the one that is dissillusioned with the whole world.

I'm not worried they will get their way what happens in the Amiga market will have no real effect on me, if it all breaks down I will be better off finacially and I'll be able to sit back and smuggly say i told you so.

What annoys me is the way these things work. The way society works, the way the Amiga Community works, the way the whole world works.

Some people would say you sound like a social misfit and would reccommend getting some help.

I will only say analyze your comments so far and try to see how they make you look from a third persons perspective. Then reflect and try to improve your understanding of the way the world works.

Good day to you sir. :roll:

[Rodney]

It isn't a poll, it's a petition. I wonder what kind of twisted logic leads someone who disagrees with the object of a petition signing it anyway. If those signatures have also been removed, even though abusive language wasn't involved, this is hardly the stuff of which police states are made.

In any case, if I had a fiver for the number of times I've seen people rant and rave about something being "unfair" and "dictatorial", before signing on the dotted line along with everyone else...

Dont get narky at me, all im saying is that it looks like some people may have been taken off the list unfairly (along with others who deserved it). I dont know if this is true, but if it is, and if it has been done delibratly, i think it shows bad on the petition.

Im not against petitions, i just think a poll would much better show the two sides and then Bill and Co could much better, gather ideas of what percentage of the community feels about what.

Im just giving my opinion, dont shoot me or anyone else goes.

As long as im talking, i will say (and i've said it before), i would like to use whatever hadware i wont, but i believe Amiga Inc know more about this then me, so ill let them go with what their thinking with, and if things start to turn bad, or nto for the better, then ill sign something, but right now, Amiga Inc are doing a great job! - As i see it anyway.

[Rodney]

Poster: Akaru Date: 2002/6/7 3:36:20

Ok lets try this again.

My point is not that the idea/arguments aren't valid.

My point is that I don't feel that the right way of representing this idea has been taken.

My point was that Petitions have an element of fascism in them. They are one sided they strengthen a view, they do not represent any alternatives.

I question why this form was used to put forward this view was it so opposing comments/view points couldn't be incorperated into the argument.

In a democracy surely these kinds of methods shouldn't be needed, A poll would be more enlightening because it would provide both sides of the story.
Why wasn't this idea presented as a poll? perhaps because the creator didn't feel that the results would end up supporting his view.

That is my point.

And apart from that the petition online site doesn't do petitions in a very good way. there is no way people can be held to account for their views because anyone can post anything they want. its not secure. And the petition can be editted, to remove anything that the creator doesn't want to include, doesn't sound very good.
When you can remove anyone from the list what makes it questionable that the final petition has any value. You are basically removing all the points of using a petition in the first place. As a way to express your views and make them count, because if someone doesn't want you to have signed it they can just remove you.

Hope that cleared a few things up.

Wow, are we the exact person? - Someone who agrees with me .

A poll would be a supper way of judging if this was the best way to do things. If the majority of the community felt a certain way, Amiga Inc would have to listen.

The petition only makes it look like 370 people in the community feel a certain way. If a poll was done and it had 370 votes all up, they could get a percentage and workout wha tthe majority of people want. Then they might consider changing it or whatever.

[fdr]

O my. Even if each of the people who signed their names under the petition spent 1000$ last year buying things on amiga market (and that, may I stress, is the only way of keeping it alive) (and, of course, they didn't spend this much, but let's assume they did), even then they would have only pumped less than half a million dollars into amiga-related companies. The sum which current owners of the Amiga paid is a couple of millions.
What we see (when watching the whole petition bussines) is a bunch of people who risk nothing and will lose nothing if Amiga fails on one side, and a group of people who invested their own, BIG money and can lose their jobs, reputation and a couple of years of life.
Guess who is critisising whom?
While it is possible that the whole POP community would gain a lot if amiga OS ran on all the machines, I don't see a reason why on earth should Bill McEwan sponsor a ceirtain part of (mostly) linux community with his own, hard earned cash? And, belive me, if you risk so much and are a succesful entrepreneur, you can count - I am sure that folks at amiga know what they are doing - their future is at stake!
We may not like it, but AInc can't become a charity company.
And more: we don't want another free, open system like linux (linux is hard to beat when it comes to commercial support, eg. drivers). We need to be different to stay afloat. And the only difference can be made in one point, which is one of linux'es biggest weaknesses: user friendliness. I consider myself a man with a good understanding of computers, I use amiga daily but sometimes I have to use a PC (not mine). I tried linux, but had to spend a lot of time reading manuals, downloading latest "stable" versions. And guess what? I discovered that windows could do everything I wanted without half the fuss.
And why is that? because windows are closed and kept standard, and linux is kept open, and everyone is pulling it in a differen direction. Did you know, that there is no good HDrecording system for linux? To use one, you have to have a specialy patched kernel! (of course the patch doesn't work on the distributions I tried). Did you know, that burning a CD rom on Mandrake requires recompilation of the kernel? One that my friend (working as linux administratorfor the biggest polish internet company) couldn't commence in two hours? That open ofiice doesn't work on KDE, god knows why? That using HPdeskjet on Red Hat requires an internet download and recompilation of the driver? Belive me: installation of linux IS a nightmare (unless you only want to use very limited features and can do with a standard installation. Much less functional than Windows).
The bottom line is: you can have user-friendliness and standard sollutions that work. Or you can have a platform that you let anyone use on their computers. You can't have both! If amiga let's just anyone use their OS on their POP machines, we are going to see a number of programms, that are machine specific, for example run only on an IBM POP (because, let's say, the developer gad such a machine). Then we're going to see patches that make an amiga program amiga-compatibile. Then we are going to see an article in Slashdot: "amiga boasts about their platform-abstraction, yet doesn't seem to be compatibile ith itself". Then we are going to see, like many times before, a heart warming news that amiga has been bought once again, and in just two months we are going to see miracles...

What do you think?
!

[System]

To deconstruct your post as yo would like me to:

So you think petions = Facism (Very broad minded and intelligent of you)

To put you straight dear fellow I will use your source of definitions i.e. Dictionary.com

No if you read my inital post I didn't say petition was the same as fascism.

Fascism is a form of government, a petition is not a form of government. Quite clearly not the same I said and I quote

"they're like a form of facisism"

 they share some very similar ideas. If you can't see what I meant I could be wrong, or you don't understand me. Clearly you don't understand me and perhaps you are upset at me because you haven't really answered my questions or read my posts properly.
I really don't mind people insulting me, but when your trying to pass off those insults as arguments against what I say I just have to point out that its not helping you one bit.

To put you straight dear fellow I will use your source of definitions i.e. Dictionary.com

pe·ti·tion Pronunciation Key (p-tshn)
n. A solemn supplication or request to a superior authority; an entreaty.
A formal written document requesting a right or benefit from a person or group in authority.
Law.
A formal written application requesting a court for a specific judicial action: a petition for appeal.
The judicial action asked for in any such request.
Something requested or entreated.


So how does making a request to a higher authority equal fascism?

Again you missed my intial point and so this is irrelevant its not fascism because fascism is a form of government you've proved again you didn't read my original post.

Posting definitions doesn't make your case any clearer if you aren't making a valid point. Add that to the fact that there is more than one definition of a petition and you can pick and choose whichever one fits your idea's best.

Thats you opinion right ? Nothing constructive about that. you have failed to follow up with any sound reasoning.

That is my opinion yes unless stated anywhere in my post you can consider everything I say my opinion. I tried to use my girl friends opinion but she keeps it locked in the bureau.

As for the counter petition I really couldn't be bothered to start one, I don't feel strongly enough about this,

So if you felt strongly enough about it and the petition system was rigorous you would then start a petition? something you call facsism. So does that make you a Fascist or a hypocrite?

No I wouldn't start a petition because I really can't be bothered. Not because I don't think petition online is good enough.
I'm sure with a secure server and some perl script I could create a secure enough petition.
I don't feel strongly about the subject of Amiga being on "Open Hardware" or not to start a petition.

Call me a fascist call me a hypocrite whatever you want your arguments still hinge the fact you think I said that a petition is fascism. I did not I have since posted a clarifying post about what I meant.

You have to listen to what I say and then refute them not what you think I said.

remember I am not defending the content of the petition , because I dont agree with it. What I stand by are my comments that defend the right for someone to set up petitions.

Thats fine this is an idealogical discussion about me being a hypocritical fascist dictator because I speak freely about my opinions in such matters and my opinions are not what everyone accept or expects.

Its just a shame no one really comes up with a good argument against me preferably one which doesn't involve insulting me, because that really weakens an argument.

You are the one thinking like a dictator and you are the one that is dissillusioned with the whole world.

Am I?  You think you can make such statements about what I am thinking by not even reading my posts?

You only have to refute my statements. explain why a petition does not have fascist overtones, why its a legitimate way to put forward ideas in a democratic society.

It might involve research however look at fascist regimes, and democracy look at definitions and put some of your own work into it, its not enough to just quote someone else's ideas at me, they should be your own. And if they are valid, I will accept them.

Facts that support my idea that a petition is a form of fascism.

A petition is started by a minority of people to put forward and idea, and to collect people to support this idea. Irrelevant to whether its is a good idea, or it benefits people.
A petition makes itself know by using propaganda.
A petition is only interested in its own agenda.
It only represents those that believe in it.
Its propaganda is biased, and often resorts to FUD(Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) to make its case.

I think those cover a few points of fascism.

Some people would say you sound like a social misfit and would reccommend getting some help.

I will only say analyze your comments so far and try to see how they make you look from a third persons perspective. Then reflect and try to improve your understanding of the way the world works.

Is that a roundabout way of saying you think I'm a social misfit? And would recommend me getting some help?

Do you think we should do that if someone doesn't agree with you, if someone has beliefs that just don't gell, we should get them some help, brain wash them to our way of thinking because its better.

Hell why don't we just get all the people we don't agree with and kill them all, we could build large bathrooms and then fill them with gas. Yeah what a great Idea.

Trust me I do analyse my comments, I think about things far more than your average person and whilst I may not be right, I'd rather people think about why I am or am not right, rather than about how I should be silenced because I am a "social misfit".

I'm quite happy with my understanding of the way the world works, some people might call me cynical, paranoid and jaded, or maybe they just realise that I might be right about a few things.

Truth is things in this world aren't inherently bad, it only takes someone to use them for bad things. A petition isn't inherantly good or bad, but it can be used in a way which defeats the point of petitions.
Democracy isn't inherently good or bad, its only the way it is applied.

Too many people like to take things and twist them to their own ends, for instance imagine someone taking a post, misquoting it, or selectively quoting it to provide a skewed view of what was said. It happens all the time on the internet, and the only thing stopping it is honesty.

[anarchic_teapot]

Akaru wrote:

Why wasn't this idea presented as a poll? perhaps because the creator didn't feel that the results would end up supporting his view.

Or perhaps, like the responsable netizens they are, they knew full well putting a poll on any site would just spark off yet another massive flamewar.



It's a free world. They chose a petition. It's their right.

[System]

Akaru wrote:

Why wasn't this idea presented as a poll? perhaps because the creator didn't feel that the results would end up supporting his view.

Or perhaps, like the responsable netizens they are, they knew full well putting a poll on any site would just spark off yet another massive flamewar.

And a petition wouldn't start a flame war? I suppose in one instance your right, as there is no one making comments against the petition there is no one to vehmently oppose it whether they are right and wrong.

I'm sure however the last thing on their minds was the hope not to start a flame war, I expect it was more about proving their point.

It's a free world. They chose a petition. It's their right.

I would usually argue that its not a free world, but that would just muddy the waters, it is their right to start a petition just as it is my right to question it.

[System]

it is their right to start a petition just as it is my right to question it

just as it is for others to question your questioning

[System]

just as it is for others to question your questioning

Exactly but are people questioning my questioning or attacking my questioning. Or just attacking me.

Are they doing it because they disagree with me or because they are scared I am right?

It seems like its all knee jerk reactions because I mentioned fascism in the same sentence as other words.