Petition: AmigaOS distribution policies and PPC hardware

[Hammer]

Using a mainstream board manufacturer as an example, refer to http://www.msi.com.tw/certificate/main.htm.

As one can see MSI has the following certification
1. “Designed for Window” certification logo.
2. .“Designed for Window XP” certification logo.
3. “nVidia Certified” logo.
4. ISO-9001 logo
5. “Linux Tested” logo.
6. ISO-14001 logo.

I don’t see Amiga Inc straying from this standard practice.

It would be good IF Amiga Inc can attract some mainstream Mobo manufactures....

[blubbe]

> I thought AmigaAnywhere was the DEplayer...

Yeah, thats about what it is.

[ShadesOfGrey]

 

Could you please shut up about OS5 this OS5 that.
I nkow about nothing about it and would be surprised if you know more. not even Amiga
knows for sure. Hasnt history proven time after time
that theese things evolve over time and may take any
direction (hopefully a good one). And why do you
put = between AA and DE, they are not the same thing. I belive the DE is described in the Amiga World
aticles.. its quite a bit to go yet. From my understanding, the DE = OS5. If OS4 even will be
used as basis for this or not, we dont know.
it could be somethng completely different.
Nothing against that if that should proove
necessary (how is that word spelled ?)

No I don't know anything more about Amiga OS 5 than anyone else.  I only have what Amiga Inc. have said they will do.  If Amiga Inc fully integrate or combine AA/DE into Amiga OS 5, then I have to assume that they will also have to relax their OEM license and include a retail copy (and license) for Amiga OS 5.  As for how Amiga OS 4 will play a role in Amiga OS 5.  As you say, AOS 4 may be part of AOS 5 or Amiga Inc. may choose to do something completely different.  It's happened before and anything is possible.

But I can speculate and voice my opinion.  I personally believe that AOS 4 will play a greater role in AOS 5 then Bill or Fleecy may currently believe.  Lets face it, the real reason AOS 4 exists is because elate just doesn't have what it takes to be a full fledged desktop or server OS.  We could very well see ExecSG from AOS 4.x rewritten in VP and become a processor agnostic kernel for delivering intent.

In my response to EyeAm, I acknowledged that Amiga OS 5 may not actually result in the full integration of AA/DE.  In fact I personally am doubtful Amiga Inc. will achieve such a goal.

If Amiga OS 5 is the AA/DE enabled version of AOS (who knows, we may not see AA/DE integration 'til 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, 9.0, or X - diez - 0x000A - 1010, or whatever).

Why do I put a "=" between AA and DE?  Actually I put a "/", but that is beside the point.  As far as I understand it, Amiga DE has become Amiga Anywhere or AA now encompasses DE.  I'm not sure anymore...  That's why I refer to AA and/or DE as AA/DE.  They certainly are related and if AA is DE or DE is AA, mentioning both covers all bases.

So why not just enjoy the ride. The future will take
mysterious ways anyway

Yes, but what fun is simply waiting for the future to become merely the present?  Using the past and present to imagine the future is what makes the ride fun.

[ShadesOfGrey]

> I thought AmigaAnywhere was the DEplayer...

Yeah, thats about what it is.

The Amiga DE Player is still called the Amiga DE Player on the Amiga Anywhere site.  

Whether this means that Amiga DE is Amiga Anywhere or that Amiga Anywhere is Amiga DE.  I have no idea.  But it would be nice to know for certain which is which.

[DaveP]

I doubt they would need to relax their "rules" for server or desktop
code if it was x86 as well as PPC based.

This is interesting

We could very well see ExecSG from AOS 4.x rewritten in VP and become a processor agnostic kernel for delivering intent.

What a very interesting idea.

My main beef with intent is the package delivery and filesystem
 its very PDA oriented and not at all nice to me. This obviously
would not be changed by an ExecSG kernel in the intent sandbox
but its a ( to me ) revolutionary thought of yours.

Good one!


 :-D

[MoribundToot]

For the past 4 years I have worked in the scanner market where there is a standard called TWAIN.  This standard is not enforced so scanner manufacturers can release product onto the market that doesn`t properly adhere to the standard defined by the TWAIN organisation.  And guess what?  It`s not the scanner manufacturers that get it in the neck when their scanner fails, it`s the software developer and the people that maintain the standard.  So from my point of view what Amiga Inc are doing is perfectly fine.  Leave it up to the industry to voluntarily follow a standard and they wont.   They need their arms twisted into doing things.  Just look at the difference in font handling between Netscape and Internet Explorer.  Then there are the differences in CSS handling.  Then there are the subtle differences in JavaScript.  The list goes on and on.   This is just my opinion from observations in the industry.

[blubbe]

@shades of gray

But I can speculate and voice my opinion. I personally believe that AOS 4 will play a greater role in AOS 5 then Bill or Fleecy may currently believe. Lets face it, the real reason AOS 4 exists is because elate just doesn't have what it takes to be a full fledged desktop or server OS. We could very well see ExecSG from AOS 4.x rewritten in VP and become a processor agnostic kernel for delivering intent.

Yes, OS4 may play a bigger role, IF it turns out successful and Amiga realises they will need
to stay on the "classic" Amiga way of things.
(cause OS4 is more or less classic but for PPC).
There are lots of other kernels out htere, that they could use othewise.

Why do I put a "=" between AA and DE? Actually I put a "/", but that is beside the point. As far as I understand it, Amiga DE has become Amiga Anywhere or AA now encompasses DE. I'm not sure anymore... That's why I refer to AA and/or DE as AA/DE. They certainly are related and if AA is DE or DE is AA, mentioning both covers all bases

My take:
They realised AmigaDE was years ahead in time
for completition and not at all around the corner..
So instead of showing a tiny unfinnished DE lets
take the little part of it that is ready now and rename
it to AA. (The Player).

[anarchic_teapot]

Just had a look  at the petition. The list of signatures reads like an ann.lu flamefest.

Many of those who've signed are either MorphOS trolls, or people who just don't understand what's going on. For pete's sake guys, it's not Amiga Inc who can make the Pegasos AOS compatible, it's bPlan. :roll:

I was saddened to see several good friends' names in there, though I do wonder if a few names haven't been forged...

OTOH, a goodly number of the currently 219 signees actually did it to protest against the petition itself.

I'm going to ignore it. As far as I'm concerned, the Pegasos has too uncertain a release date to be taken into account, and I have no desire to shift to MorphOS. The name Amiga belongs to Amiga Inc, and they have every right to specify in what way it will be protected, and what form the licensing may take. It's not as though it's particularly convoluted, it doesn't prevent people selling dual-boot systems (as MicroShaft do), and it makes sense to have a mobo that can recognise an AOS-formatted hard disk to boot from.

Storm in a bloody teacup. All these hysterics are beginning to disgust me. No wonder so many people have left the Amiga scene and retain such a poor opinion of those that are left. It's frankly pitiful.

[pixie]

Amiga Inc. aren't doing anything illegal, which is more than I can say of the 3rd party AmigaOS code use (whether reverse-engineered or otherwise) of Amithlon, MOS or AROS

Amithlon and AROS definitely aren't doing anything illegal, as for MOS I'm not shure, get ur facts straight, because reverse-engeneering is not illegal...

[Seehund]

Are people still arguing over those two POP mobos over here? Sheesh.
 And some people even seem to think that one somehow is "more Amiga" than the other, ain't that cuuute. Aren't trademarks and licensing a wonderful thing? :-P

To the ones still asleep; wake up! There still isn't any one out there making any "Amigas". Nothing has changed. You'll get AmigaOS4, be happy. If you're lucky you'll even be able to choose which POP mobo you want to buy.

anarchic_teapot wrote:

Just had a look at the petition. The list of signatures reads like an ann.lu flamefest.

What, the names? How many flamewarriors (regardless of imagined "side") are known by nick/name on ANN? 3? 5? 10?
I'm sure it's not 230.

Many of those who've signed are either MorphOS trolls, or people who just don't understand what's going on.

I suppose they're no better than the rest who can't stop forming their every opinion based on labels, "camps", trademarks and licenses.
BTW, right now I count to 1 abusive "pro-MorphOS" (sigh) comment. There's also 1 faked "pro-MorphOS troll" from someone pretending to be Brecht Machiels ("darklite").

For pete's sake guys, it's not Amiga Inc who can make the Pegasos AOS compatible, it's bPlan.

Pardon?
[color=0000FF]Q:[/color] "There's this software company with a new OS. Who's responsible to make it compatible with as much hardware as possible? The hardware companies or the software company developing/selling the OS?"
[color=FF0000]A:[/color] "Huh? The software company of course. Just like any other software company. Is this a trick question?"

I was saddened to see several good friends' names in there, though I do wonder if a few names haven't been forged...

OTOH, a goodly number of the currently 219 signees actually did it to protest against the petition itself.

Oh, God no! Truly saddening. What ever shall you do? Cut all ties to your former friends or just look angrily at them?
All over a petition trying to change a software company's business practices...

Yeah, there are 4 people who either didn't understand that a button saying "Sign the petition" actually will "Sign the petition", or are trying some kind of sabotage. It's kind of funny either way.

I'm going to ignore it. As far as I'm concerned, the Pegasos has too uncertain a release date to be taken into account, and I have no desire to shift to MorphOS.

MorphOS, the Pegasos and the A1G3-SE aren't the point of all this. The point is that it shouldn't matter to you what label there is on a POP mobo or who's selling it to you. No software company has anything to do with that.

 The name Amiga belongs to Amiga Inc, and they have every right to specify in what way it will be protected, and what form the licensing may take.

I thought it was obvious that the world actually contains a couple of companies who have no desire to use the Amiga trademark. Regardless of whether a hardware distributor has that desire, and the desire to get themselves and their hardware licensed and modified and on top of it all sell another companiy's OS bundled with it, we - the users and customers - should have the right to buy our hardware from those companies to run whatever OS we like. Amiga Inc. should try to sell us *their own* product, AmigaOS.

 It's not as though it's particularly convoluted, it doesn't prevent people selling dual-boot systems (as MicroShaft do),

It is convoluted, but that doesn't really matter. A software company of Amiga Inc's caliber CANNOT make ANY demands or put any restrictions on hardware and hardware distributors if they have any intention of maximising their number of sales and get their product running on as much hardware as possible.

and it makes sense to have a mobo that can recognise an AOS-formatted hard disk to boot from.

What has a license, OS/hardware bundling and anti-piracy extensions in the BIOS or elsewhere to do with your harddisk, its MBR and filesystems? Would a POP mobo stop booting from some harddisks if you peeled off the Amiga sticker?

All these hysterics are beginning to disgust me.

Yeah, those damn hysterics. BTW, did you lose many friends in the Great Petition Horror of 2002? Sheesh...

[Seehund]

BTW...

@anarchic_teapot

though I do wonder if a few names haven't been forged...

Could you please list those names (unless it's the darklite spoofer which I already know about). If it's true it's of course unacceptable.

Abuse and sabotage won't get anyone anywhere. Do people seriously believe that the crap won't be removed when it's compiled (if not before)?

[KennyR]

Rapidly sliding OT here, but reverse engineering *is* very illegal - look at any of the legal mush that comes with most (all?) commercial software! And what did you think the legal problems with Amithlon were about then? Parking tickets?

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because a law is unenforcable that it is non-existent. After all, AInc caught out Amithlon on a technicality, and there's always the chance MOS or AROS might get the same treatment.

I'm beginning to think some people think the Amiga belongs to them. Wrong! It belongs to AInc, not the "community". They paid for it and can do anything they like with it regardless of petitions or protests or flames. None of us can change that. Just get over it.

If they let us down, we don't have to follow them, do we?

[DarkHawke]

Okay,  I read the petition.  Why does it seem like it doesn't  have a rhetorical leg to stand on?  The update makes it plain that what AInc wants is a quality user experience for OS 4 users from stem to stern, something that hasn't existed since C= went tits up.

[Some might say that it didn't exist even when C= was still on its feet, but that's another story!  :-) ]

 I think that's a laudable goal and it doesn't seem like they're asking anything either extreme or exhorbitant from the hardware folks to meet that goal.  Piracy is a vailid concern, and although folks like M$ have Net/software ways around that, AInc may just not be able to do that kind of thing. . . yet! :-D

In fact, close examination of the petition shows that it partially misrepresents AInc policy.  AInc only wants the hardware manufacturer to stand behind and support THEIR product, not OS 4.  And the sale of OS 4 by that hardware company look to be restricted to only those products that are intended to RUN OS 4.  If they want to strip out the hardware "dongle" and sell the thing as a PPC box, they seem to be more than welcome to do so, so long as it's not promoted as an "Amiga compatible" box.

Quite frankly, this nascent PPC market is NONE of AInc's concern, and there's no good reason it should be.  They're trying to make money off of THEIR products, and not facilitate the development of a market in which they may or may not have a stake.   Yes, a more liberal distributon policy for OS 4 might make it an attractive alternative for current PPC users.  Then again, why stop there?  Why not unify the best of OS 4 and AA, allow everyone to put it on the computer they ALREADY have and make it an attractive alternative to everyone?  Seehund has encouraged us to look beyond the Amiga market infighting to see his petition clearly.  I wonder if he's ever looked beyond the tiny Amiga and PPC markets to see the current state of the entire computer marketplace clearly.

MY only big concern is that judging by the update, it seems like Bill Mc. & Co.  are concentrating TOO much on the OS 4/hardware solution!  Granted, OS 5, if it does turn out to be the happy marriage of AA and OS 4, could have Win XP-style activation to foil piracy and STILL be hardware independant.  But the update seems to imply that they've put a lot on the A1/OS 4 thing, and if too much is invested in that path they may be reticent to pursue AA to its best and most logical extent.

[DanDude]

Sorry, I'm not signing this lousy petition just to open more doors to crackers.    Yes, I did read both sites.

reticuli made some strong statements and I honor him for that.

As for the Microsoft tactics, ---limiting--- one browser and ---paying--- to have it registered into a stupid list is a perfect example, not Amiga Inc.'s plan!

Dumb dongles can be easily copied no matter what tactic you use.

I don't trust Apple or any of their tactics as well.   :roll:

[DaveP]

Notice that someone has spoofed Wayne on the petition:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?amigaos&1

comment 264.

Seehund you have said that you are going to clean up the comments
are you going to check that these people are genuine?

Shame the idiots have to spoil it for you!

Dave

[System]

I don't think this petition will have much clout because of whats been said above. Can all of these be verified? can they really be taken notice of? Anyone can post under more than one name and email address. Theres nothing stopping people from spoofing other peoples interest, it doesn't have enough legitimacy.

I think the mechanics of signing the petition need to be considered properly and it done again.

Perhaps each signee should have to register properly,  if someone really cares they would be willing to give 5 minutes of their time.