Rats leaving a sinking ship, or something else?

[uncharted]

greenboy wrote:

As I said in my post Phoenix does not have any interest in the Amiga name. You brought Phoenix into the discussion here seeming to claim that it does. But it does not. Trying to spin that into a PR-speak connection afterwards while ignoring what I said about mine and Phoenix's lack of interest in the Name shows that when you "call it as you see it " you apparently also choose to filter out what others say if it doesn't fit what you want to see.

Had your posting been soley about Phoenix's postition with regards to the Amiga branding then fair enough.  However it soon turned into a posting about Genesi.  In fact your first comment tried to counter my comment about the lawsuit by highlighting your close ties (and by extention your authority) to Genesi.

So you cry foul when I bring up your close ties with Genesi, and yet you use it as a basis for your arguments?

Another misdirection: "I never dragged phoenix into working so closely with Genesi" does not even fit the context of your orignal statement - it's purpose of making the association was to attribute something to Phoenix which simply is not true.

I'm not ashamed to admit I haven't got the foggiest what you are going on about. :-?

As far as your BBRV quote from ANN, it does not really prove what you say it proves, as I see it. The post seems to list several reasons, and other BBRV posts have also raised other reasons. Those reasons do not constitute a "nuisance suit" - unless one throws away quite a few phrases that speak of motivations as well as business and contract.

When a suit is "just a means to shut Bill McEwen up and force Amiga Inc. into a settlement that might include us obtaining the rights to the Amiga trademarks and the classic OS." I'd say that would be a nuisence suit.  

Your more personal comments about my posting style are simply irrelevant to the topic, and as in the past you seem to be rather antagonistic...

They weren't intended to be personal, just an observation.  They aren't irrlevant, they were my explanation of why I mentioned Phoenix alongside Genesi.

Please post examples of my antagonistic behaviour. It's so little I post on here that I can't remember what I said where.  Most of my postings on here recently have been help, information or general chit-chat and totally devoid of politics.

Or is it just the case that it's easier to try and label me a troll rather than engage in a proper discussion.

If I speak with authority it is because I present my observations and experiences in my style, usually without trying to go inflammatory. That does not constitute PR, though I do try to choose my words so as not to splatter invective and hearsay into a discussion when I am at my best ;  }

Making a point of your connections, talking about another company with the kind of insights you claim to have all smacks of PR to me.  From what I see whether you want to or not you function as PR to Genesi - always there to the defence, always there with Phoenix's spin on events when Genesi/MOS/pegasos come up as the topic of conversation.

[Paul_Gadd]

So we all agree? Great muscian, crap person

Yeah, the guy is a bastard but his music is great, also i am NOT comparing him with Amiga Inc like for some sad reason someone decided to bring him in to topic.
Maybe a secret fan :-D

Amiga Inc are crooks (what else would you call a company what takes peoples money and delivers nothing), no one can prove they are not crooks, end of story.

[Hammer]

That was the first thing to pop into my mind when I read about the law firm dumping Amiga Inc. If it is that, it's way too late as the judge is about to rule on the sanctions and having or not having counsel won't impact on that since they had counsel submit their replies already.

In due process. The ratio decidendi has yet to be given.

If the judge pulls the plug, I could see him delaying it's execution till Amiga Inc has time to find new counsel and file an appeal.

I’ll just watch and eat some more extra strength butter and fine salted pop corn.

 I just don't see Amiga Inc being able to secure another counsel without having some fresh cash to offer.

The bit the bugs me is the income (from licensing) from the AmigaOne sales i.e. where does the income go to?

The bank statement only proves the current bank balance, cash deposited and cash withdrawal. It doesn’t prove any other external (i.e. outside the said entity) bank accounts. One could be liberal in regards to entity separation between the other external bank accounts and the business’s bank accounts.

Who's going to take them when they have just stiffed their last counsel?

Is the claim "stiffed their last counsel" the real situation or speculation?  

[Glaucus]

Generally, the way it works is that one needs to prove guilt, not the lack of it.

  - Mike

[Hammer]

that_punk_guy wrote:

uncharted wrote:
 If their intentions are to capture the whole market by having "the name", then that won't work either, because their employees and fanboys (not talking regular users, but the MOS equivalent of MikeB) have pissed off to many people, and also there are those of us that prefer AOS4 simply because it's closer to what we want than MOS is.  

But if Genesi owned the Amiga brand, at least to the extent that Amiga, Inc. does now (not forgetting Gateway's patents) surely we'd be able to have OS4 for the Pegasos?

One problem with current Pegy/MorphOS is the dual control of OS and HW under one entity (i.e. Genesi). It’s IBM all over again (i.e. IBM PS/2 & OS/2 (conflict of interest)). I don’t see MorphOS running on “AmigasOne” boards.

The ideal situation (in traditional commercial sense) is an independent OS provider with cloned HW vendors (i.e. the Microsoft/X86 PC structure). This classic structure enables the 8086/286/386 PC platform to compete with superior hardware (non-unified 68K PC and RISC PC boxes) at that time.

X86’s success also translated to X86 Linux's success (against classic Unix markets i.e. one couldn’t deny the succuss of Linux without the dominance of X86 bandwagon).

The PowerPC market has some elements of a clone market i.e.
PowerPC motherboard builders and support
+Eyetech (out-sourced to some Taiwanese company)
+Genesi (via DCE(?))

PowerPC Chipsets vendors
+ Marvel
+ MAI

PowerPC CPU vendors
+IBM
+Motorola

PowerPC BIOS Firmware
- Element missing due to non-compatible BIOS ecosystems. Must achieve the some cross compatibility as with X86/AT BIOS clone vendors.

PowerPC OS vendors
- Weak at market presence (largely tied to related market structural problems).

The wheel of PowerPC clone (desktop) market is dogged by infighting and lower level ecosystem incompatibilities.  

So we'd have the choice, plus cheaper hardware to run it on. Sounds good to me...

The chipset war between NVIDIA (e.g. nForce II) vs VIA (e.g. KT400/600) was good for the AMD Athlon K7’s market. The incoming K8 chipset battle between AMD vs NVIDIA vs VIA vs SIS vs Ali/ULi will bring price or/and function benefits to the consumer(in long term it benefits AMD’s K8 platform).  The X86 motherboard clone war adds an extra competitive edge against other motherboard markets. Before that could happen, other critical low level ecosystems must be common.

[gary_c]

uncharted wrote:

From what I see whether you want to or not you function as PR to Genesi - always there to the defence, always there with Phoenix's spin on events when Genesi/MOS/pegasos come up as the topic of conversation.

To an extent it's in the interest of the Phoenix consortium to speak up when Genesi, etc. is the topic. This is because of the mutual goals of the two and the mutual benefits of working together. This has to be seen in the context of the failure of Amiga, Inc. to work in a mutually beneficial way with Phoenix, and the striking contrast in Genesi's style.

No company and no relationship are perfect, but it has been very nice to see a company not only with viable products being developed and marketed, but also with the awareness that the best way to work with an outfit like Phoenix is to be willing to give as well as get, to share resources, to seed the community, and  work cooperatively toward a shared goal.

Phoenix and Genesi aren't joined at the hip, and there are elements in each that don't necessarily find any benefit in the other, but there is a lot of symbiosis there for the "post-amiga" space.

-- gary_c

[Karlos]

Paul_Gadd wrote:
Amiga Inc are crooks (what else would you call a company what takes peoples money and delivers nothing), no one can prove they are not crooks, end of story.

I have to agree with Bobson on this one. Amiga Inc., in my opinion are primarily guilty of being inept at running the company. I don't think they would have willingly set themselves up for all this crap...

They have screwed up rotten and haven't delivered on many promises, but I don't think that was their plan.

After all, if you intend to profit by defraud customers and what not, you'd create a small company that is easily lost and moves on. You remain faceless, anonymous, low profile and never have the same ID twice. Stay in one place, scam people, then move on to the next...(more than likely you set up buisness live in nigeria :-) )...

You absolutely do not take on a company that is registered, easily traced, has a public profile and can be made accountable in courts. Not unless you are the worlds worst ever supervillian :lol:

[dammy]

by Karlos on 2003/9/29 21:55:57

You absolutely do not take on a company that is registered, easily traced, has a public profile and can be made accountable in courts. Not unless you are the worlds worst ever supervillian

Ever hear of WorldCom or Enron?

Dammy

[bhoggett]

@Karlos

I have to agree with Bobson on this one. Amiga Inc., in my opinion are primarily guilty of being inept at running the company. I don't think they would have willingly set themselves up for all this crap...

They have screwed up rotten and haven't delivered on many promises, but I don't think that was their plan.

I don't think that anybody in their right mind believes they set out to scam people when they bought & licensed the Amiga stock and IP off Gateway.

However, when they screwed up, they reacted by attempting to sweep the mess under the carpet, and then turned to downright fraud rather than give it up as a bad job. Did they really intend to scam people with the Party Pack and coupon discount schemes? Maybe not, but my take is that they weren't at all certain they could honour their end of the bargain, but decided to take the money anyway and hope something would turn up before they'd have to make good on it.

It's not such a surprising story. A lot of people who end up committing fraud don't set out to do so, but simply get caught up on the downward slide and can't get off before it's too late.

At the end of the day, claiming that their current plight is just down to bad luck or evil competitors is a very sorry excuse for utter incompetence.

[Tigger]

Hammer wrote:
One problem with current Pegy/MorphOS is the dual control of OS and HW under one entity (i.e. Genesi). It’s IBM all over again (i.e. IBM PS/2 & OS/2 (conflict of interest)). I don’t see MorphOS running on “AmigasOne” boards.

I realize that this is really Ben's arguement, but lets be honest about it.  Commodore owned everything and that worked better then anyone since.   In addition, MorphOS does run on the Teron boards (which are AmigaOnes without the custom ROM) and in fact posts in the last few weeks have pointed to it running on actual AmigaOne boards, whether it actually does or not isnt a real issue, its not a significant effort if it doesnt at this point.   In addition, MorphOS runs on Macs, and other PPC cards, there are alot more systems that MorphOS runs on then there will ever be AmigaOnes.  

The ideal situation (in traditional commercial sense) is an independent OS provider with cloned HW vendors (i.e. the Microsoft/X86 PC structure). This classic structure enables the 8086/286/386 PC platform to compete with superior hardware (non-unified 68K PC and RISC PC boxes) at that time.

You are missing a whole lot of steps here, however understand, MorphOS runs on multiple PPC boards,  Amiga OS 4.0 will only run on AmigaOne.   The  "closed" system is currenly Amiga OS 4.0, not MorphOS.  The one that wont run on the others board, is 4.0, the one that has only has one modern board it runs on is OS 4.0.    
         -Tig

[bhoggett]

@Tigger

You are missing a whole lot of steps here, however understand, MorphOS runs on multiple PPC boards

Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong, but MorphOS is not available independent of the Pegasos hardware. You can't use MorphOS without buying a Pegasos any more than you'll be able to use AmigaOS4 without buying an AmigaOne (the CSPPC/BlizzardPPC cards don't count).  The fact that the impediment is not hardcoded into the firmware is rendered meaningless by current marketing policy.

[Tigger]

bhoggett wrote:
@Tigger

Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong, but MorphOS is not available independent of the Pegasos hardware. You can't use MorphOS without buying a Pegasos any more than you'll be able to use AmigaOS4 without buying an AmigaOne (the CSPPC/BlizzardPPC cards don't count).  The fact that the impediment is not hardcoded into the firmware is rendered meaningless by current marketing policy.

Bill Buck has talked often about selling a MorphOS CD for the Mac, thats a pretty huge market, and lots of available hardware.   This week, Ben once again basically blew the thought of running Amiga on Macs out of the water, despite the fact you can buy a more powerful Mac for the large premium we have on AmigaOne branded Teron boards.   The entire structure of how Amiga OS is being done has driven it away from other hardware choices, and thats unfortunate for several reasons.    Whether MorphOS is available to purchase for other hardware solutions today, isnt the issue in my opinion, the fact that Genesi is willing to discuss and work towards other solutions is a big step in the right direction, one that the Amiga Inc (Fleecy) plan doesnt support.  
     -Tig
   

[uncharted]

Tigger wrote:

Bill Buck has talked often about selling a MorphOS CD for the Mac, thats a pretty huge market, and lots of available hardware.

 

Bill Buck says many things, just because he talks about it makes it no more true.  Besides the CD you are talking about is always refered to not as a full operating system, but rather some kind of autorun CD (you play games or something from MOS hosted IIRC - I'd have to check the exact quotes)

This week, Ben once again basically blew the thought of running Amiga on Macs out of the water, despite the fact you can buy a more powerful Mac for the large premium we have on AmigaOne branded Teron boards.   The entire structure of how Amiga OS is being done has driven it away from other hardware choices, and thats unfortunate for several reasons.

When it is released it will be available to CS as well as A1, that's twice as many platforms than MOS is publically available for.  It's not worth going into this now as this is OT and been done to death.  All I can say is anyone who honestly believes that anyone is whiter than white on this issue, as a complete fool.

    Whether MorphOS is available to purchase for other hardware solutions today, isnt the issue in my opinion, the fact that Genesi is willing to discuss and work towards other solutions is a big step in the right direction,

Is it not the issue because you don't like the fact?  What fact that Genesi is is willing to working with others?  Previous posting on the web would indicate otherwise when talking about the Amiga market.  Unless you just swallow the company line, like many seem so willing to.  I still find it funny how with all these problems that have occured around Genesi it is always someone else's fault.

 one that the Amiga Inc (Fleecy) plan doesnt support.  
   

That's odd, one of the things people were whinging about a while back was the fact that during MOS/Amiga discussions, amiga wanted to seperate Ralph + co from Bplan so SW and HW were independant.

[Hammer]

I realize that this is really Ben's arguement

I don't think that section text is relevant to my post...

but lets be honest about it. Commodore owned everything and that worked better then anyone since

Commodore’s success would be considered to be a dismal failure compared to MS Windows/Linux/AMD/Intel based solution (i.e. CBM went bust in the long run).

In addition, MorphOS does run on the Teron boards (which are AmigaOnes without the custom ROM)

Notice " " characters i.e. I already know the Pegy I is a variant of Teron based solution. The point of reference for cloning POV (in relation to multi-vendor compatibility) is the X86 PC world.

and in fact posts in the last few weeks have pointed to it running on actual AmigaOne boards, whether it actually does or not isnt a real issue, its not a significant effort if it doesnt at this point.

Statement i.e. "whether it actually does or not"  is self defeating.  

and other PPC cards

No different to OS/2 Warp on certain PC X86 clones.  

there are alot more systems that MorphOS runs on then there will ever be AmigaOnes.

Numbers was not the point i.e. it’s about even level field for other HW vendors. A vertical integrated company will have certain advantages over its competitors (within market level).

[Warface]

When it is released it will be available to CS as well as A1, that's twice as many platforms than MOS is publically available for.

MorphOS has a Pegasos and Blizzard/CyberstormPPC version as well. "twice as many platforms" is a pretty laughable argument against MorphOS to be honest, as OS4 is not available at all...

[Karlos]

dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2003/9/29 21:55:57

You absolutely do not take on a company that is registered, easily traced, has a public profile and can be made accountable in courts. Not unless you are the worlds worst ever supervillian

Ever hear of WorldCom or Enron?

Dammy

Exactly :-) Were they any good at it they wouldn't have been caught...