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Offline alexatkin

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1184 from previous page: June 21, 2009, 03:28:27 AM »
Quote from: Roondar;512447
To be fair, the PS3 also has a weaker GPU and a worse memory scheme than the Xbox 360. I see these to be more of a problem. Especially since Sony does have tools available to get you to use the SPU's relatively well even if you don't know how to (API's even :P).


Actually there is a lot of argument that the memory is more efficient and that clever coding of the SPEs can make up for the limitations of the GPU and even surpass the 360s one.  

Personally, even if true I see that as a cop out.  Surely the point of a good games console is to make the developers job as easy as possible.  

It also cannot alter the fact that the Xbox 360 could use almost all its memory for textures if the software only needed a tiny amount for its use, and vice versa.  Plus there are a lot of the functions the PS3 has (voice chat in-game, custom soundtracks, etc) that were tagged on after launch and require a LOT more memory taken away from the games than the Xbox, as the Xbox had those functions built-in to the OS and optimised for its allocated memory space since day one. But we digress off topic now.
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1185 on: June 21, 2009, 03:42:56 AM »
Quote from: alexatkin;512610

Actually there is a lot of argument that the memory is more efficient and that clever coding of the SPEs can make up for the limitations of the GPU and even surpass the 360s one.  

Personally, even if true I see that as a cop out.  Surely the point of a good games console is to make the developers job as easy as possible.  

It also cannot alter the fact that the Xbox 360 could use almost all its memory for textures if the software only needed a tiny amount for its use, and vice versa.  Plus there are a lot of the functions the PS3 has (voice chat in-game, custom soundtracks, etc) that were tagged on after launch and require a LOT more memory taken away from the games than the Xbox, as the Xbox had those functions built-in to the OS and optimised for its allocated memory space since day one. But we digress off topic now.

One of the major features of NVIDIA's G80 is the decoupled shader and texture units. ATI Xenos also includes this design.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 03:45:41 AM by Hammer »
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Offline alexatkin

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1186 on: June 21, 2009, 04:01:55 AM »
Quote from: Hammer;512602
I was referring to direction, deceleration and acceleration on the classic digital joystick.

Indeed.  It may be more accurate to sample quicker, but if someone presses left then right, then lets go of the joystick entirely, all within a screen redraw - your game does not need to know that.  In fact if your game DID react to that action it would seem like the game is not responding correctly to user input, as far as the person at the controls was concerned.

This cannot be compared to audio where you are trying to replicate an analog signal by digital means, so naturally the more detail you can record the better.  Whereas you do not need to record exactly what the persons hands are doing to sufficiently replicate what the game needs to know to react fast enough for it to appear seamless to a human being.  

Maybe if we 1kHz refresh rates on our TV/monitors we could perceive the difference (even if we cannot outright see every single frame itself) but we do not.  Its just logical that if you have a 60Hz screen update then that is the absolute fastest you need to update your game state and so the fastest you need to capture joystick input.

All your game needs to know is the state of the joystick right at the moment it needs to take action based on that input.  You are only going to take action once per screen redraw or again, it will appear to the user that the game is reacting oddly to user input.

In fact, most games may react even slower.  I remember distinctly that some games seem too sensitive to user input and could have done with making sure you are pressing the same button for several screen redraws before reacting.  Its all about synchronising the game response with the users reaction time.

So again, the polling speed of the Amiga joyport is no more useful for gaming than USB1.  Alas a PC keyboard seems pretty slow to react but its still "fast enough" for most games, to the point that home-made MAME cabinets using PCs just have a little keyboard emulator circuit wired up to the joystick and buttons.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 04:07:32 AM by alexatkin »
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1187 on: June 21, 2009, 04:04:36 AM »
Quote from: Hammer;512452
Retail space wouldn’t indicate market size.



Reference 1 http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/3766/pc-largest-single-platform-for-gaming-revenue-is-about-11-billion

The PC is the largest single platform for games with annual worldwide revenue of about $11 billion. This is more than any of the console and portable systems from Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo.

• In emerging markets such as Asia and Eastern Europe the PC has become the de facto platform of choice for games as console systems have not had major penetration in most countries.

• Even in North America and Western Europe the PC is the leading single platform for games with over $6 billion in combined revenue from those markets.

• Broadband penetration has been a key driver of growth and revenue growth for PC games, and is directly tied to growth in broadband penetration.

• The three biggest trends in 2008 were 1) the growth of online digital distribution via services like Valve’s Steam; 2) the growth of free games with a virtual item purchase model and 3) the growing presence of game cards at major retailers like 7-Eleven.

• Top PC games regularly generate over $50 million at retail revenue but can generate substantially more in subscription and/or add-on revenue.

• Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMOGs) are the leading products for both revenue and profits. Several Asian MMOGs are generating over $100 million in annual revenue after 5+ years on the market. World of Warcraft is generating over $1 billion in annual revenue. The Lich King expansion to World of Warcraft outsold its predecessor. In 2008, two major new subscription MMOGs (Warhammer Online and Age of Conan) sold over 1 million units at retail.

• Digital distribution, free-to-play models and retail game cards are well-established in Asia, but just starting to emerge in North America and Europe.



Reference 2 http://au.gamespot.com/news/6210424.html?tag=latestheadlines;title;5

• According to the PCGA's 2008 Horizon's Report, PC gaming software saw global revenues reach $12.7 billion in 2008, a year-over-year rise of $1.9 billion, or nearly 18 percent. Overall, the study found that the PC software and hardware market stood at $68 billion in 2008.



Reference 3 http://www.edge-online.com/news/ea-pc-becoming-worlds-largest-games-platform

• "Electronic Arts chief financial officer Eric Brown has said that “the online part of our business is growing as much as 60% year over year" and that the PC is rapidly becoming the largest gaming platform in the world."


Retailers are not in it to make a loss.  Space costs money.  PC games don't make as much for them because they don't sell as much.

I doubt very much that PC game sales would get anywhere near console game sales, may be if you compare individual consoles yes, but not the whole console game market.
 

Offline persia

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1188 on: June 21, 2009, 04:24:03 AM »
Basically we are looking at a trend of a shift to PCs from specialised game machines.  If it continues and there is evidence, at least in Asia, that it is continuing, PCs will overtake the specialised game machines in total.  The market is not static, what is today may not be tomorrow.  And you are right, one indication will be the stores, they will lag the trend only by a month or so, but they will reflect local and not global preferences.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1189 on: June 21, 2009, 04:57:58 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;512615

Retailers are not in it to make a loss.  
.

Offcourse they don't.

Quote from: stefcep2;512615

Space costs money.  PC games don't make as much for them because they don't sell as much.

I doubt very much that PC game sales would get anywhere near console game sales, may be if you compare individual consoles yes, but not the whole console game market.

These consoles are treated as individual platforms. The PC(Games For Windows) is just like any other gaming platforms.

Dell’s direct sale model doesn’t require the classic retail model.
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Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1190 on: June 21, 2009, 07:31:29 AM »
Quote from: Hammer;512619
Offcourse they don't.


These consoles are treated as individual platforms. The PC(Games For Windows) is just like any other gaming platforms.

Dell’s direct sale model doesn’t require the classic retail model.


"Pssst, hey buddy, here is a 50 if you display my console games up front k".
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1191 on: June 21, 2009, 08:03:54 AM »
Quote from: Fanscale;512628
"Pssst, hey buddy, here is a 50 if you display my console games up front k".


50 aint gonna cut it.

At EB during the time when Gamecube was out, Nintendo was at the back of the store no advertising in store, nothing.  When the Wii and DS started to boom, mainly because of Nintendo's marketing, Nintendo now gets the most shelf space-the DS alone get as much as PC, plus the Wii, at the front of the store.  PC's games are somewhere down the back.  Successful sales get you more prominent shelf space, it must be since the PS1 and N64 days that PC got more space than consoles.
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1192 on: June 21, 2009, 10:11:58 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;512603
I did, it's your normal misunderstanding.


Aparently I understand enough about the differences to know that as each model was produced, more and more emulation had to be put in place to cover. The situation by the time we get to the 040 and the 060 those differences are so great that AmigaOS will not boot without having patches in place. Something you are trying to squirm around that now by citing the 68020 only. Bt


Quote from: amigaksi;512603

>Citation please. I think you'll find no such post where I say these two models are "incompatable".

So they are compatible like it states here:



Oh no you don't, you accused me of being:

Quote from: amigaksi;512544
biased if you think the 68000 is incompatible with 680x0 processors.  


So again, citation please. I think you'll find no such post where I say these two models are "incompatable".

Quote from: amigaksi;512603


http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68020/


LOL! You call that evidence? So we have Karlos who has the actual Motorola manuals, which explain the various difficulties and potential coding pitfalls with regard the 68k. You have the rest of the Amiga using world knowing full well that if you yank the 040 library from an 040 Amiga system it won't boot (same for the 060) and you have what amounts to a magazine brochure... Come back when you get a clue.
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Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1193 on: June 21, 2009, 10:53:13 AM »
The Great Windows Disk Access Caper:

as an experiment in leanness I turn off file indexing in Windows XP. It takes longer to search for files, but at the same time there are no random disk accesses. I'm still being taxed up to %20 CPU at idle, but this probably a 3rd party app doing that. I shall have a look for it.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1194 on: June 21, 2009, 10:54:10 AM »
@the_leander

You can boot an 040 machine without the 040.library, so long as you don't run SetPatch (and I mean, come on, who wants to have bugs in their OS fixed anyway, right) and go straight for a no Startup-Sequence boot.

What you get then is something that claims to be 68040 without any FPU support. Data caches are also typically disabled, since without the 68040.library you don't get your MMU support in order to mark different regions as cacheable or not (see first attachment). So without the MMU, all memory is marked non cacheable since ChipRAM and cache don't really mix.

Running SetPatch installs the 68040 library, adding handlers for the unimplemented instructions, enables the MMU and turns on caching for fast memory (see second attachment)

So in short, yes you can "boot" an 040 system without the library, but it really isn't worth it.
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Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1195 on: June 21, 2009, 11:29:08 AM »
Quote

You evolve and progress or you die.

Seems like Amiga people chosed neither... They definitely don't want to progress or evolve, neither want to die. Or at least admit they are dead.

Guess this whole thread shows that clearly. Amiga is dead but its gameport is still the best... and so on.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1196 on: June 21, 2009, 11:32:08 AM »
Quote from: warpdesign;512654
Amiga is dead but its gameport is still the best... and so on.


But is it? I can plug a large hard disk in what passes for my PC's gameport today and transfer files through it at over 400Mb/s.

I can't really do that on the amiga gameport.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1197 on: June 21, 2009, 11:47:47 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;512648

So in short, yes you can "boot" an 040 system without the library, but it really isn't worth it.


I stand corrected. However, having to disable important parts of the OS as well as hobbling the cpu and leaving you needing prayer that what you're using doesn't do anything that would normally be caught by 68040.library to me seems even worse then it simply refusing to boot at all.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1198 on: June 21, 2009, 11:58:41 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;512655
But is it? I can plug a large hard disk in what passes for my PC's gameport today and transfer files through it at over 400Mb/s.

I can't really do that on the amiga gameport.


I think warpdesign was being ironic :)

Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1199 on: June 21, 2009, 11:59:40 AM »
I don't see why amigaksi can't acknowledge the Catweasel Mk IV, I assume it has it's own clock/timer on board.:bitch:
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