PC still playing Amiga catchup

[persia]

I run a small computer department at a University and I can tell you what keeps the IT department running, people who really shouldn't be using a pencil without safety glasses being given a computer to play with.

God knows how many deaths we'd have if they had Amigas instead of PCs...

Hi,

UHHHH, Maybe if you only use a Windows installed computer once or twice a year, come to think of it I have never seen a Windows computer that is used every day go without at least 2 crashes a year, that is why the place where I work has an IT department staffed with about 200 personnel, they are either fixing computers or re-installing windows on them. My one last thought, would you board an aircraft if you knew that windows was running all the digital instrumentation on it?, or would you drive a auto if you knew windows was running your auto computer?

Now my A4000 which gets turned on for use at least twice a week hasn't crashed since 1993 and still has my data on it since then, and I must admit my 2 gig hard drive is getting quite full, I still have about 1.2 gig free for use, might be another 10 years and I will have to think about installing a larger hard drive.

PC users can you claim this?

smerf

[EvilGuy]

You're kidding, right? I'm assuming you haven't visited Microsoft's web site any time in the last ten years.

As much as I dislike M$, I have to give them some credit. Their developer documentation
is pretty good.

[koaftder]

As much as I dislike M$, I have to give them some credit. Their developer documentation
is pretty good.

Yea it is, and so are their tools. Best in the industry. It's one of the things they've done right. Apple is working very hard to catch up to it.

[ElPolloDiabl]

Poor cache usage...:roflmao:

Could Windows problem be poor usage of the cpu cache? I'm using XP and whenever the optical drive spins up the OS slows to a crawl. Why is it putting the brakes on? Why does XP need to wait for the drive... how many cpu cycles does it need? Optimally, the most important OS functions should stuffed in the cpu cache (its 2MB). If that was the case, Windows would be blindingly fast.

[koaftder]

Windows and Linux/BSD are more efficient than OSX. I like the mac and have house full of 'em but lets face it, it's on the bottom of the pile.

[Trev]

Poor cache usage...:roflmao:

Could Windows problem be poor usage of the cpu cache? I'm using XP and whenever the optical drive spins up the OS slows to a crawl. Why is it putting the brakes on? Why does XP need to wait for the drive... how many cpu cycles does it need? Optimally, the most important OS functions should stuffed in the cpu cache (its 2MB). If that was the case, Windows would be blindingly fast.

Windows doesn't slow down, the shell (explorer.exe) does. Try disabling autoinsert notification/autoplay.

CPU caches don't work that way. Windows does, however, keep all the key bits in memory.

[Roondar]

Problem is more about getting all states of joysticks regardless of what a human's reaction time is.

This one line does not negate my post somehow you know. If you have a point regarding what I wrote, please make it instead of writing something that only adresses a single line of text in there and totally ignores the rest.

And another thing:

For a joystick port, the only 'problem' facing programmer is to read out the joystick fast enough a human can't notice you did so. The old 8 bit computers where slow, but the programmers of the time managed to fix this 'problem' by reading the state of the joystick at between 20-60Hz. This was more than plenty for people, it looked as if the ship/ninja-dude/thing-on-a-spring/whatever reacted directly instead of with a delay (exceptions here being due to slow animations, not slow joystick reading).

This means that polling a joystick at a rate of 20ms or faster is quite ok. You don't actually need it to be any faster and I'm 100% certain that programmers (being I know how they think as I a) am one and b) observed the works of the 8-bit crowds) only do what is needed and no more: they poll the joystick state once every frame. Not two times, not ten times. And definitely not at 1 KHz, which would be an utter waste of resources.

Now, had you written this about mice you actually may have had a point. But then, we do have PC mice that track at 1KHz. Notice that these mice are USB based and no one seems to have lag issues with them.

[Roondar]

And THIS is what happens with modern hardware when you force developers to "bang on the hardware" vs developer friendly, API driven devkits. (not that the PS3 does not have APIs, but it requires the developer to do the work to get the 7 SPEs doing anything useful whereas the 360 does not)

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/17/ghostbusters-on-ps3-lags-behind-360-version-developer-explains/

To be fair, the PS3 also has a weaker GPU and a worse memory scheme than the Xbox 360. I see these to be more of a problem. Especially since Sony does have tools available to get you to use the SPU's relatively well even if you don't know how to (API's even ).

[Hammer]

Hi,

But only in an emulator, or virtual drive

smerf

PC-DOS 1.0

"It booted flawlessly on a 3.00GHz PIV."

Refer to http://vetusware.com/download/PC-DOS%201.00/?id=4356

[Hammer]

gaming-capable and used to play games on are not the same thing.  Go to any retail outlet and you'll find Pc gets about 20% shelf space.

Retail space wouldn’t indicate market size.

  Ofcourse you can download PC games, but thats not relatively common.  PC gaming these days is heading towards role play/strategy genre that takes years off your life, and the FPS coz of the mouse and keyboard control, byt FPS's on consoles are becoming popular, just depends on what you prefer as a control method.

Reference 1 http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/3766/pc-largest-single-platform-for-gaming-revenue-is-about-11-billion

The PC is the largest single platform for games with annual worldwide revenue of about $11 billion. This is more than any of the console and portable systems from Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo.

• In emerging markets such as Asia and Eastern Europe the PC has become the de facto platform of choice for games as console systems have not had major penetration in most countries.

• Even in North America and Western Europe the PC is the leading single platform for games with over $6 billion in combined revenue from those markets.

• Broadband penetration has been a key driver of growth and revenue growth for PC games, and is directly tied to growth in broadband penetration.

• The three biggest trends in 2008 were 1) the growth of online digital distribution via services like Valve’s Steam; 2) the growth of free games with a virtual item purchase model and 3) the growing presence of game cards at major retailers like 7-Eleven.

• Top PC games regularly generate over $50 million at retail revenue but can generate substantially more in subscription and/or add-on revenue.

• Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMOGs) are the leading products for both revenue and profits. Several Asian MMOGs are generating over $100 million in annual revenue after 5+ years on the market. World of Warcraft is generating over $1 billion in annual revenue. The Lich King expansion to World of Warcraft outsold its predecessor. In 2008, two major new subscription MMOGs (Warhammer Online and Age of Conan) sold over 1 million units at retail.

• Digital distribution, free-to-play models and retail game cards are well-established in Asia, but just starting to emerge in North America and Europe.



Reference 2 http://au.gamespot.com/news/6210424.html?tag=latestheadlines;title;5

• According to the PCGA's 2008 Horizon's Report, PC gaming software saw global revenues reach $12.7 billion in 2008, a year-over-year rise of $1.9 billion, or nearly 18 percent. Overall, the study found that the PC software and hardware market stood at $68 billion in 2008.



Reference 3 http://www.edge-online.com/news/ea-pc-becoming-worlds-largest-games-platform

• "Electronic Arts chief financial officer Eric Brown has said that “the online part of our business is growing as much as 60% year over year" and that the PC is rapidly becoming the largest gaming platform in the world."

[Hammer]

To be fair, the PS3 also has a weaker GPU and a worse memory scheme than the Xbox 360. I see these to be more of a problem. Especially since Sony does have tools available to get you to use the SPU's relatively well even if you don't know how to (API's even ).

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/sony-playstation-ps3-developers-hirai,news-3346.html

"Sony says PS3 Intentionally Hard for Developers"

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?" explained Hirai.

[the_leander]

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/sony-playstation-ps3-developers-hirai,news-3346.html

"Sony says PS3 Intentionally Hard for Developers"

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?" explained Hirai.

That's a very interesting way of saying "we f%%ked up on both our hardware development and developer tools". In fact it's so bad now that Activision are threatening to pull out of the market. Having difficult to code for hardware and poor dev tools is fine if you're the market leader such as with PS2. But PS3 is trailing hard behind both Wii and the 360 in terms of numbers and both of those have mature and efficient dev suites available to them. Tbh I can see the PS3 being this generations Dreamcast.

[Hammer]

That's a very interesting way of saying "we f%%ked up on both our hardware development and developer tools". In fact it's so bad now that Activision are threatening to pull out of the market. Having difficult to code for hardware and poor dev tools is fine if you're the market leader such as with PS2. But PS3 is trailing hard behind both Wii and the 360 in terms of numbers and both of those have mature and efficient dev suites available to them. Tbh I can see the PS3 being this generations Dreamcast.

Unless Apple enters the console gaming market, a reduced competition would be bad for consumers.

[Roondar]

Retail space wouldn’t indicate market size.



Reference 1 http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/3766/pc-largest-single-platform-for-gaming-revenue-is-about-11-billion

The PC is the largest single platform for games with annual worldwide revenue of about $11 billion. This is more than any of the console and portable systems from Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo.

• In emerging markets such as Asia and Eastern Europe the PC has become the de facto platform of choice for games as console systems have not had major penetration in most countries.

• Even in North America and Western Europe the PC is the leading single platform for games with over $6 billion in combined revenue from those markets.

• Broadband penetration has been a key driver of growth and revenue growth for PC games, and is directly tied to growth in broadband penetration.

• The three biggest trends in 2008 were 1) the growth of online digital distribution via services like Valve’s Steam; 2) the growth of free games with a virtual item purchase model and 3) the growing presence of game cards at major retailers like 7-Eleven.

• Top PC games regularly generate over $50 million at retail revenue but can generate substantially more in subscription and/or add-on revenue.

• Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMOGs) are the leading products for both revenue and profits. Several Asian MMOGs are generating over $100 million in annual revenue after 5+ years on the market. World of Warcraft is generating over $1 billion in annual revenue. The Lich King expansion to World of Warcraft outsold its predecessor. In 2008, two major new subscription MMOGs (Warhammer Online and Age of Conan) sold over 1 million units at retail.

• Digital distribution, free-to-play models and retail game cards are well-established in Asia, but just starting to emerge in North America and Europe.



Reference 2 http://au.gamespot.com/news/6210424.html?tag=latestheadlines;title;5

• According to the PCGA's 2008 Horizon's Report, PC gaming software saw global revenues reach $12.7 billion in 2008, a year-over-year rise of $1.9 billion, or nearly 18 percent. Overall, the study found that the PC software and hardware market stood at $68 billion in 2008.



Reference 3 http://www.edge-online.com/news/ea-pc-becoming-worlds-largest-games-platform

• "Electronic Arts chief financial officer Eric Brown has said that “the online part of our business is growing as much as 60% year over year" and that the PC is rapidly becoming the largest gaming platform in the world."

This is quite interesting to read. Especially since financial reports of these companies suggest that the PC is trailing the consoles. Case in point, let's look at EA:

Total PC: 430
Total Consoles : 1,799
Total mobility (DS, PSP, etc): 572
The Xbox 360 alone makes EA more money ($589 million) than the PC
(All in millions of $, from page 103 of their financial statement for 2008, http://investors.ea.com/annuals.cfm)

The same story is found for most of the bigger publishers.

BTW, I'm not saying the the PC market isn't bigger (even though that report you referred to is being sneaky in including online revenue on the PC side and not doing so for the consoles - even though Xbox live, PSN etc make quite a lot of money). But it's also much more crowded and so harder to make money in for bigger parties.

[Roondar]

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/sony-playstation-ps3-developers-hirai,news-3346.html

"Sony says PS3 Intentionally Hard for Developers"

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?" explained Hirai.

I suppose that EDGE was just a joke then and they don't actually use OpenGL after all?

You are taking PR talk from the CEO and pretending it's fact. This is not wise

[Hammer]

This is quite interesting to read. Especially since financial reports of these companies suggest that the PC is trailing the consoles. Case in point, let's look at EA:

Total PC: 430
Total Consoles : 1,799
Total mobility (DS, PSP, etc): 572
The Xbox 360 alone makes EA more money ($589 million) than the PC
(All in millions of $, from page 103 of their financial statement for 2008, http://investors.ea.com/annuals.cfm)

The same story is found for most of the bigger publishers.

BTW, I'm not saying the the PC market isn't bigger (even though that report you referred to is being sneaky in including online revenue on the PC side and not doing so for the consoles - even though Xbox live, PSN etc make quite a lot of money). But it's also much more crowded and so harder to make money in for bigger parties.

The key part of PC gaming’s growth is in Asia.