PC still playing Amiga catchup

[amigaksi]

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Which has for the last time been noted, but with the caveat that the I/O in question is an order or two of magnitude faster then what you're comparing it against, the result being that the speed loss in software is more then made up for in raw hardware performance.

How are you not getting this?
...

You are not getting it:  if I have IN AL,DX which takes 1 microsecond and w/API bullcrap it takes 1.2 microseconds then if you speed up hardware so IN AL,DX takes 0.6 microseconds then the API version will still be slower.

>I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.

If you purposely try to confuse things to escape from your dilemma of being wrong (being refuted), you are using Chewbacca defense.

>Until you can show (with real, verifiable evidence) that the Amiga can react to such input your whole argument is bunk.

That's wrong.  Faster interface is useful even if user cannot react to such input.  You are toggling back and forth between different views.

[amigaksi]

APIs enables the PC to quickly adapt and assimilate technologies.

They are doing some sort of hardware interface anyway even when they target APIs, but instead of all manufacturers of said product using same hardware interface they are using same APIs which is suboptimal.

[jkirk]

Just as you avoid erroneous API calls or work around them, you can deal with hardware bugs and work around them.  It's the same for both--

in an api you program to a standard codeset which the os can trap and kill if it goes awry.
in direct hardware you have a set of commands(loose wording) that directly control the hardware that has the potential to let multiple programs access this hardware simultaneously. this creates the possibility of causing a hardware lockup killing the system.

but I would say worse for APIs as too many versions confuse things.  

uh nope if a piece of software requires directx 10 or higher it is cut and dry. directx 10 even has backwards compatibility with previous versions. also this piece of software installs the version it needs on install.

I know how IOPM works.  You have a very shallow understanding of it.  You can go direct to hardware and still have IOPM.

yea i do have a shallow understanding of it. but what i understand is that it is a gate system. and the port is open or closed. that it is very simplistic in operation. but closing the barn door after a lockup is not of any use.
In order for the os to really control the flow you will have to adopt some form of api this way the os can refuse to pass on something that is not properly executed. this is the point of an api.

[Hammer]

Cop out.  That's what you always wind up with when you have no arguments left-- who cares?  Well, who cares about 2Ghz or 7Mhz?   To me (and millions of others) having IN AL,DX is more significant than processor speed.

>2. And you're twisting YOURS. You started this silly argument saying that Amiga game port can poll joysticks 1000 times every second (be aware you haven't yet proved it), thus making the (classic) Amiga platform "more suitable for games".

It can do more than 1Khz.  You are twisting things again.  All I said was some games can use the 1Khz.

DirectInput can detect poll rates higher than 1Khz.

  It's more accurate.  And AMIGA IS FASTER in reading the joysticks regardless of the sampling rate of the joystick.

Read up on USB "High Speed" 125 usec spec.
 

>"ANY USB port can handle 1 KHz as well, even more", and this ends up the argument. YOU decided to complicate it introducing "hardware banging" and assembly lines. And here started bullcrap.

You don't even follow the flow of arguments.  API vs. direct hardware is a separate point (more generic).  Joystick polling is slower on PC whether you use API or direct hardware.  Stop misquoting me.

USB "Full Speed" poll rate can be higher than 1Mhz.

[Karlos]

Is it about time to close this thread as pointless bickering over a subject which is clearly not true?

Or it could be renamed the "the great PC v Amiga flamewar" and keep it as the fighting pit for people that want to duke it out so that they don't open equivalent threads elsewhere.

[ElPolloDiabl]

Or it could be renamed the "the great PC v Amiga flamewar" and keep it as the fighting pit for people that want to duke it out so that they don't open equivalent threads elsewhere.

ROFLMAO.:roflmao:.:roflmao:


Proceed with nonsense forthwith.

[Hammer]

They are doing some sort of hardware interface anyway even when they target APIs, but instead of all manufacturers of said product using same hardware interface they are using same APIs which is suboptimal.

You haven't addressed Protracker 1.0 vs OctaMed V4 vs Deluxe Music interactions.

How would they know every CUDA processor variant? G84M A2 and A3 stepping has different voltage parameters. Drivers can detect the steppings and adapt accordingly. The reasons for different stepping are due to manufacturing issues. Geforce 9650M GT and Geforce 9500M GS have memory timings.

Is the user land programmer going re-implement the power management for my GPU?
Setting the wrong P-states can destroy the GPU e.g. if you didn't install the latest NVIDIA driver and BIOS patches, you might invoke NVIDIA's G84/G86's "blackscreen of death".

Setting the wrong memory timings can corrupt display e.g. Geforce 9650GT running mod desktop driver corrupts the display, while it's fine on Geforce 9500M GS.

Subsequent hardware fixes introduce inconsistencies.

Standards usually have a long verification times e.g. X64 development vs CUDA development.

[jkirk]

The part about serial being more significant than parallel:  I have dealt with hundreds of machines including laptops and parallel port is there but serial is not.  

lol i think you should look again. nearly every machine i have seen that has parallel has at least one serial port.

Some companies never had a gameport on the motherboard to begin with-- they were targetting businesses.  So audio cards w/gameports were used and still available along with corresponding joysticks.  So I think not supporting gameport would be dropping quite a few users out there.

let it go this was old tech.

The gameport support is more recent phenomena than AT keyboards.  I bought a surround-sound souped up audio card w/game port just 3 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_port

Since about 1990, the game port has usually been integrated with a PC I/O or sound card, either ISA or PCI, or as an on-board feature of some motherboards; before that, it was usually on a dedicated ISA card. Microsoft has discontinued game port support with Windows Vista,[1]  

http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2keyboard/

IBM AT Keyboard (1984)

eh only 6 years apart.

They ended up using those controllers on PCs as well.

things developed for one market can often be used in other markets. the xbox controller was made for xbox. people wanted to use it on a pc so when the market speaks things happen (well sometimes, it sure made them think about it then.)

[Hammer]

You are not getting it:  if I have IN AL,DX which takes 1 microsecond and w/API bullcrap it takes 1.2 microseconds then if you speed up hardware so IN AL,DX takes 0.6 microseconds then the API version will still be slower.

USB "High Speed" spec has 125 usec. IF the APIs brought USB "High Speed" to Amiga’s joystick speed, you shouldn't see USB "High Speed" having 40MB/s effective bandwidth.

From usb faq
Signals
1.   Does USB support data rates besides 12 Mb/s and 1.5 Mb/s?

A:   Yes. The new hi-speed data transfer rate is 480 Mb/s. There is, however, wide variation in edge rates. With typical line loads, full speed devices usually fall in the 12-25 ns range, and low-speed devices typically range 110-225 ns.

[Wayne]

Or it could be renamed the "the great PC v Amiga flamewar" and keep it as the fighting pit for people that want to duke it out so that they don't open equivalent threads elsewhere.

Or simply "The Delusional in the Amiga crowd versus reality 101".

Color me amazed that vBulletin seems to be readily handling 1 thread with over a thousand replies.  Xoops would have croaked by now.

Also... LOVE the tags for the thread...

[Hammer]

If PCs don't care about doing the real-time stuff and leave it to hardware, then Amiga wins.

QNX RTOS X86 likes to say hi.

 If PCs don't care about digital joysticks

The digital joystick's on-off nature doesn't belong in simulation type games. Amiga's digital joysticks would $uck on PS3's Grand Turismo 5.

or making interface faster, then Amiga wins.  I can say Amiga wasn't meant for faster and faster processor design.  Actually, even Atari ST was faster than Amiga in terms of processor speed although Amiga came out afterwards.

Atari ST has a !@#$% IGP.

[Hammer]

P.S. Can we drop the hardware calls argument. They are fine for dedicated arcade systems, but have no place on a modern computer. The bitching should be aimed at said operating systems.

I learned PEEK/POKE statements on the Vic 20. But I had no need to hit the hardware on the Amiga. Did I miss out on anything? Probably not.

Capcom's Street Fighter IV Arcade edition  runs on Core 2 Duo and Geforce 7900GS based wintel PC (aka TAITO TYPE X2).

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=905

[meega]

Color me amazed that vBulletin seems to be readily handling 1 thread with over a thousand replies.  Xoops would have croaked by now.

vBulletin can cope with a lot more than that... More than 2600 posts in this vBulletin-based forum thread and that isn't remotely "big" as far as threads go. The Tech Report's monster thread is currently at 487 pages with 14,500+ posts (it's "part 2" - they locked "part 1" at 477 pages when things got a little slow due to the server having difficulty parsing the thing, but phpBB has improved a bit since then, so they might not lock the second instalment yet, time will tell).

[persia]

Perhaps this thread could be the beginning of a new coffee house section, well actually given the delusional nature of these postings maybe it should be called the crack house section.

How is it clearly not true?

PCs have been playing catch-up ever since Amiga was introduced.  They have had higher processor speeds/computational power even before Amiga was introduced.  They are still playing catch-up in some areas.  Their API method of approach is making it worse for them.

[Wayne]

Perhaps this thread could be the beginning of a new coffee house section, well actually given the delusional nature of these postings maybe it should be called the crack house section.

Don't get me wrong folks, I'm delusional that a thread on this site can still pull 1000+ responses in a short time.  I just wish it was all threads..  Then we might actually be able to say that the Amiga isn't dead after all..

:laughing:

[Roondar]

Don't get me wrong folks, I'm delusional that a thread on this site can still pull 1000+ responses in a short time.  I just wish it was all threads..  Then we might actually be able to say that the Amiga isn't dead after all..

:laughing:

Well, my Amiga's don't appear to be quite dead yet.

The platform?
There is that saying about horses....