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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #749 from previous page: June 15, 2009, 08:19:20 PM »
Quote from: paolone;511292
Oh, my...

1. http://www.overclock.net/faqs/73418-how-improve-mouse-response-accuracy-changing.html

After many pages reading your silly rants about a joystick port that should be polled faster than on 20-years-later technologies, I simply got bored and entered "USB polling frequency driver" into Google, which gave me many interesting results. Just read what the first result has to say, "Windows by default has the usb ports working at 125Hz of 1000Hz that USB is capable of, giving 8ms response times. You can change the frequency to 250Hz(4ms), 500Hz(2ms) and 1000Hz(1ms) to get better response times" and please don't bug everyone else with your foolish assumptions.
...

Which is faster: MOVE.W $DFF00A,D0 or going through a serial protocol?  I hope you know when you write a general application for some PC, you cannot assume they have some specialized card in there.  You have to take the general case of Gameport or standard USB joystick.

>2. That's not true. Everyone else here explained you that APIs are better just because they allow programming in shorter times, compatibility-friendly with more HW configuraions..


Bullcrap.  You can have APis on top of standard hardware and those systems are better.  You can do things that APIs don't allow or are more inefficient at it.

>3. You don't even need an example, it's plain logic. Every time your OCS chip does a clock cycle, any modern, low-value GPU has already executed thousands of instructions.

Then give the APi calls that will swap the index #3 and #15.  And I'll time them on my machine.

>4. No, he doesn't need glasses. YOU need a reality check. Or maybe a travel ticket to fantasyland, to Amiga Neverland or so.

I timed it myself.  You go repeat the experiment and then reply.
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Offline ZeBeeDee

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #750 on: June 15, 2009, 08:20:54 PM »


Somebody order popcorn?

Happy to oblige ... double the usual amount especially for this thread :)
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Offline Trev

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #751 on: June 15, 2009, 08:39:54 PM »
Quote from: ZeBeeDee;511418
Happy to oblige ... double the usual amount especially for this thread :)


If you didn't draw it on an Amiga using quick palette swapping and high frequency joystick sampling, it's off topic. Sorry. :-(
 

Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #752 on: June 15, 2009, 08:43:46 PM »
The brute force approach.

Killer Nic:

http://www.bigfootnetworks.com/bandwidth-vs-latency

Just in case you haven't drooled over it already.
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Offline Trev

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #753 on: June 15, 2009, 08:49:12 PM »
The Killer NIC is cool (and if it could be used in an Amiga host environment, even coolor), but the problem with the Killer NIC and other types of TCP/IP offload engines is that they are often quickly outpaced by host CPUs and stacks. The Killer NIC, though, provides a complete host environemnt in and of itself, akin to a single board computer, so its usefulness extends beyond simple offloading.
 

Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #754 on: June 15, 2009, 08:58:51 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511416
You must be on drugs if you think doing serial access via 201h is going to outdo the Amiga's move instruction.  USB would be faster than 201h serial protocol.  And we're not trying to surpass 1khz.  Which is faster is the point.  1Khz is not the top limit for Amiga--  that was another subject regarding some applications requiring 1Khz sampling.


Hi,

@Amigaski,

How did you know I was on drugs, I just got back from the dentist after having 2 molars pulled and she gave me some wonderful drugs that puts me in la la land, but I am not la la'ed out as much as you are.

Using the Algorithm that the human body can sense, even if the PC was running at 500 hz the eyes would not see any change in the movement of the cursor even though the Amiga's joystick port was moving at a hz speed of 50% faster. In this case the human body (eyes) would sense a faster movement only if the difference in speed was 3 times faster. Which means that you are probably correct, the joystick does move faster but the human eyes would not see it until it was moving at least 3 times the speed of the PC joytick.  In other words just for the heck of it, try this:

Hook yourself up to a 1000V, then 3000V, then 9000V, they 27000V and then tell me at what voltage that your body has sensed a change in?

Then come back with an answer.

smerf
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Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #755 on: June 15, 2009, 09:10:53 PM »
Quote from: Fanscale;511425
The brute force approach.

Killer Nic:

http://www.bigfootnetworks.com/bandwidth-vs-latency

Just in case you haven't drooled over it already.


Hi,

@Fanscale

Didn't you start this thread?

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #756 on: June 15, 2009, 09:12:11 PM »
Quote from: smerf;511429

Hook yourself up to a 1000V, then 3000V, then 9000V, they 27000V and then tell me at what voltage that your body has sensed a change in?
smerf


Don't tase me bro!
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Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #757 on: June 15, 2009, 09:16:41 PM »
Quote from: Trev;511424
If you didn't draw it on an Amiga using quick palette swapping and high frequency joystick sampling, it's off topic. Sorry. :-(


Hi,

@Trev,

Are you going to surrender the ship, are you going to quit, even though he is totally wrong, are you going to let this misguided person win this debate, are you ready, willing and able to accept defeat and admit that the PC still playing Amiga catchup?

What have these boards come to?

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline ZeBeeDee

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #758 on: June 15, 2009, 09:43:11 PM »
Yeah sorry about that Trev ... but due to an accident involving a particle accelerator, a liquid lunch, and a pair of rubber bands, my infininity improbable super-duper clockwork 'Start Me Up' PC running Winblows 934563463300000000000 beta candidate 2 and BinUAE decided to guru at a most unfortunately inappropriate time.

The end result was somebody constantly going on about his joystick for some reason or another *shrugs shoulders*

Meanwhile back in the real world ... MORE POPCORN!!! :)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 09:49:19 PM by ZeBeeDee »
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Offline Trev

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #759 on: June 15, 2009, 10:12:15 PM »
Quote from: smerf;511434
Are you going to surrender the ship, are you going to quit, even though he is totally wrong, are you going to let this misguided person win this debate, are you ready, willing and able to accept defeat and admit that the PC still playing Amiga catchup?


No, I'm in the relevancy camp. No human can trigger a joystick input at 1 kHz, and no mainstream Amiga-compatible display has a refresh rate of 1 kHz. It's really a question of whether or not both an Amiga and a "PC" can sample, process, and respond to an input event in a timeframe that matters to both the application and the end user. In short, they both can.

Limiting the criteria under which either an Amiga or a "PC" can be said to be "still playing ... catchup" is a sad, sad way to win a debate in general terms. NTSC Amigas are faster than PAL Amigas, but that won't stop anyone from arguing over which is "better" in terms of end user experience. Change of subject: PAL Amiga still playing NTSC Amiga catchup?

My one thousandth post should have been more interesting.
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #760 on: June 15, 2009, 10:27:37 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511417
Which is faster: MOVE.W $DFF00A,D0 or going through a serial protocol?


in c#
Code: [Select]
joystickDevice.Poll();

This is faster for a number of reasons. First of all, I didn't have to write the entire application in assembly language. So what if you can read the joystick with one mov instruction? Reading a joystick ain't hard no matter what the language and API you have to deal with. What's hard is all of the other parts of the game you have to write, especially the graphics. I don't know about you, but I don't like writing graphics code in asm. Some of the crappiest, most inefficient code I've ever seen was written in assembly language. The whole mantra of "code written in assembly is the fastest there is" is an exaggeration beyond belief.

Second, I can read the value from two analog sticks and two analog flippers more than once per frame, I can do it as fast as the HID spec allows, and there can be a lot more analog controls on the device than that! Not so on the Amiga, only can do this once per frame. So much for the superior Amiga joy port.

With the Amiga Joy port, I get one 1980's era standard boring as hell joystick. Just one per port. Imagine playing Gears of War or Crysis with such a joystick. Might as well sit on the damn thing. On the PC I can have a dozen gaming devices. Mice, keyboards, steering wheels, foot pedals, yokes, game pads, classic style joys, harddrives, video output devices, video input devices, audio output devices, audio input devices, and the list goes on and on. All on one bus. With the Amiga joy port, I get.... a joystick... an old crappy joystick whose metal contact switches tie directly to I/O pins on some bizarre custom chip that's capable of recording the full glory of raw signal bounce. Oh how superior!

USB HID devices output perfect state information to the computer. There is no need to poll it a thousand times a second as humans can't click a button more than 10 times a second. With the USB bus, one can connect 127 devices to the bus, all working simultaneously. USB 2.0 can transfer 60 megabytes a second across the bus.

All this being said, the Amiga joystick port is just another para interface hanging off a custom chip. It is unusual in that you can fetch information from it rather quickly. One thing amigaski hasn't done in his argument is actually show real code that reads the joystick port as fast as he claims. He has a product which emulates joystick devices for the amiga by bit banging the para port on the pc, but notice he hasn't claimed there are games which are unusable using his hardware emulation product, which by it's very nature has to use the supposedly inferior db15 standard legacy joystick port or a keyboard for it's input.

The only devices that i'm aware of that actually use the limits of the Amiga joyport are audio digitizers that tie in to that port. I wouldn't be surprised if others on here know of additional devices that can use the capability of this interface. There are two words that accurately describe the Amiga Joystick/Mouse port: weird and suboptimal.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #761 on: June 16, 2009, 01:00:41 AM »
Quote from: Roondar;511349

(Disclaimer: this does not mean I don't feel PC's have long since surpassed the old Amiga, it merely means I feel most people on these boards overstate the capabilities of the average PC)


Or they say: "fast booting doesn't matter to me" , or "fast shut down doesn't matter to me" or "jerky menus don't happen""-knowing full well they do or "malwares only a consequence of how popular the PC is, so that makes it ok", or "the registry isn't so bad", knowing full well that the registry is an abomination, or a Linux PC 'just works' because they know a Linux PC can easily send you into command line hell just to get the hardware working at all, or to get the GUI up.  You see if it doesn't matter to them, these things can be ignored and therefore the argument is WON.
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #762 on: June 16, 2009, 01:15:25 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;511470
Or they say: "fast booting doesn't matter to me" , or "fast shut down doesn't matter to me" or


They don't, many people simply use standby thus negating the issue. Thanks to memory protection, it is rare that a piece of software will take down the rest of the OS.

 
Quote from: stefcep2;511470
"jerky menus don't happen"


Jerky menus? Take an A1200, put a load on the cpu and watch as the rest of the system slows to a crawl.

I have a dual P2 (233Mhz) system here running BeOS, the cpus when running live streaming are constantly at 80%. The menus are just as fast as when the system is idling. Only difference is that app loading slows down, which is to be expected.

Quote from: stefcep2;511470
"malwares only a consequence of how popular the PC is, so that makes it ok"


Malware is a consiquence of people not bothering to secure their systems. It is not ok.

Quote from: stefcep2;511470
"the registry isn't so bad", knowing full well that the registry is an abomination


The registry is a database. If you can come up with a better solution to address being able to support and intergrate litterally hundreds of thousands of different pieces of hardware, the rest of the computing world would love to know. Linux, BeOS and (I believe) Mac all use a database help address this issue.

Quote from: stefcep2;511470
or a Linux PC 'just works' because they know a Linux PC can easily send you into command line hell just to get the hardware working at all, or to get the GUI up.


That was 2000 calling, their want their distribution back. And flaky hardware drivers are not a linux specific issue.

Quote from: stefcep2;511470
You see if it doesn't matter to them, these things can be ignored and therefore the argument is WON.


Correct, because many of the issues do not matter to the average user - they just want to use their applications. I for one am happy that I don't have to write my own scripts to get a cd-rom to run when I plug it in.
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Offline Trev

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #763 on: June 16, 2009, 01:37:28 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;511470
or "the registry isn't so bad", knowing full well that the registry is an abomination


How is the registry an abomination? I'm not looking for a debate; I'm just curious as to why you think it is.

A simplified abstraction of the registry is the tooltype, but rather than store named values in a shortcut (which is just an instance of the IShellLink object persisted to disk), they're stored in a centralized database.

The registry is more flexible than an initialization file, and if necessary, the two can be used hand-in-hand through mapping and redirection, assuming standard Windows APIs--GetPrivateProfileString(), SetPrivateProfileString(), et al--are used by the target application. In a multi-user system, you can work wonders with the registry at the data level that just aren't possible with initialization files. (You can get quite crafty with initialization files, but at some point, you end up with a database-like series of overlays, i.e. the registry.)

Granted, the hierarchical nature of the registry often leads to unnecessary complexity, but when used properly, the registry is a valuable tool.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #764 on: June 16, 2009, 02:03:06 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;511471
They don't, many people simply use standby thus negating the issue. Thanks to memory protection, it is rare that a piece of software will take down the rest of the OS.


thanks to saving regularly, booting in 5 seconds, and using stable well written software, memory protection doesn't matter to me.  I'd like it but I bet you'd like a 5 second boot as well.  But to use your argument against you, memory protection doesn't matter to me, so Amiga wins for me.
 
Quote from: the_leander;511471


Jerky menus? Take an A1200, put a load on the cpu and watch as the rest of the system slows to a crawl.



turn on your windows PC, wait for the start button/orb to appear and try to launch something and watch the menu stutter and leave garbage behind before it clears itself.  Makes you feel good about your quadcore 4 gig ram SATA?
Quote from: the_leander;511471


I have a dual P2 (233Mhz) system here running BeOS, the cpus when running live streaming are constantly at 80%. The menus are just as fast as when the system is idling. Only difference is that app loading slows down, which is to be expected.


i have a freeware scheduler "Executive" and i can render an animation in cinema 4d, whilst editing scenes and objects in Cinema 4D, send the resultant pics to Adpro for processing, save the files automatically, do a spot of house keeping with DOpus, paint a texture in Dpaint and the Operating System menues are just as fast as if had nothing loaded- on a 50 mhz machine with 16 meg ram

Quote from: the_leander;511471


Malware is a consiquence of people not bothering to secure their systems. It is not ok.



malware is a consequence of having security risks in the OS that can be exploited.  A security system is what must be used to close those holes- for a few days until another exploit is found.  This then means a performance hit.
Quote from: the_leander;511471


The registry is a database. If you can come up with a better solution to address being able to support and intergrate litterally hundreds of thousands of different pieces of hardware, the rest of the computing world would love to know. Linux, BeOS and (I believe) Mac all use a database help address this issue.


i don't have one on my Amiga.  It doesn't matter to me.  Therefore Amiga wins.

Quote from: the_leander;511471

That was 2000 calling, their want their distribution back. And flaky hardware drivers are not a linux specific issue.


tell the thousands posting here: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327 or here :http://forum.mandriva.com/ (just two examples) that they its 2009 and there problems DO NOT EXIST, its just that they are caught in an alternate reality where its always the year 2000

Quote from: the_leander;511471

Correct, because many of the issues do not matter to the average user - they just want to use their applications. .


Correct.  So using your argument against you: The software on my Amiga does what i want it to, reliably and efficiently and things such as nuclear physics sims, cloud computing, playing DVD's bluray and games on the PC don't matter to me and (increasingly to the average user) because a $30 DVD player does a better job of playing DVD's, and a $250 Bluray player does better job of playing Bluray and any game genre worth playing is available on any one of 3 consoles without the hassle of a PC (and a $600 PS 3 does all three).
Quote from: the_leander;511471

I for one am happy that I don't have to write my own scripts to get a cd-rom to run when I plug it in


That was 1985 calling, their want their Workbench 1.3 floppy back.

And flaky hardware drivers-if any drivers exist AT all that is- are a particularly linux specific issue.