PC still playing Amiga catchup

[stefcep2]

and that day you'll buy a cheap USB joystick and enjoy nice games of today... wondering... "how did I miss these jewels ?"

why do you think he hasn't played any games of today?

Actually more generally why is it assumed he only uses an Amiga?

[jj]

To answer the question.
 
NO.  The PC is terms of hardware alone passde the Amiga well over ten years ago.   Probably more like 15.   Lets get real.

[stefcep2]

To answer the question.
 
NO.  The PC is terms of hardware alone passde the Amiga well over ten years ago.   Probably more like 15.   Lets get real.

And the user-experience?

[Hammer]

So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.

A yawn subject.

So far no one has shown why API-based systems are superior to hardware level compatibility.  

APIs enables the hardware to change significantly and reduce hardware complexity i.e. save on
1. Transistor usage,
2. Energy consumption.
3. Maximised math units.

Geforce 9650M GT:  22watts/(32 SP* + 8 SSP**) = 0.55 watts*** per stream processor.
It has excellent performance per watt.

*Dual Issue Stream Processor.
**Special Stream Processor.
***Should be less than this i.e. not factoring texture units, Early-Z, Giga-threading, Filters, AA, Pure-Video 3(another SIMD array) and etc.

Example of significant hardware change is between disastrous Geforce FX 5800 (VILW based) and fixed Geforce 6800 (SIMD based).

Higher level API's advantage is to encapsulate complex functions e.g. PhysX, XNA.

So far no one has shown that simple example of palette index swap is faster using APIs.

My Quake 3 (demo001, normal settings) results in +500 FPS.

So I don't know what you are reading.  Perhaps you need glasses.

That's all you can do?

[Hammer]

And the user-experience?

Able to run multiple FLV in HD, upscale DVD (e.g. PowerDVD , play Blu-Ray 1080p movies, mobility and 'etc'.

[jj]

As much as I love my Amiga, and all things related to amiga, I would say the user experiece of Windows XP (Apart from slow booting times) is way better, useful quicker etc.  And no i dont care it s a dual core am64 with 4 gig of ram versus 50mhz 040 and 32mb of ram.
 
My pc cost a lot less to make too.

[GadgetMaster]

And so this saga ends.

I think I agree with you here. The thread does seem to have run out of steam at this point.

Oh well. You could always start another controversial topic that will keep us entartained for pages and pages. or not.  :lol:

It'll sure keep the site lively.

[Roondar]

Able to run multiple FLV in HD, upscale DVD (e.g. PowerDVD , play Blu-Ray 1080p movies, mobility and 'etc'.

I hate to nitpick, but he stated 'probably 15 years ago'.
I'd hardly see you doing any of those things on a bog standard PC from 1994

Heck, most of the PC's out there today can't do all of those things, let alone at the same time.

(Disclaimer: this does not mean I don't feel PC's have long since surpassed the old Amiga, it merely means I feel most people on these boards overstate the capabilities of the average PC)

[Speelgoedmannetje]

So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.

So far no one has shown why API-based systems are superior to hardware level compatibility.  

I think you're mixing up the USB stack and the API. The USB stack can have a hickup from time to time (well, in Windows that is). But an API is just a redirection, which, especially nowadays, doesn't cause any noticeable delay.

So far no one has shown that simple example of palette index swap is faster using APIs.

Eh? Palette index swapping? For at least 10 years, that isn't been used anymore. (when a 32 bit palette became common in 3d acceleration)

[smerf]

Hi,

@Amigaski,

A Palette Swap is a concept most commonly found in fighting games. Palette Swaps occur when two or more characters share the same style sprite or character model with only minor color or cosmetic changes. Although visually similar, pallet swap characters may have very different moves and personalities.

So far as I can find a palette swap is used in only 38 games.

Oh my God that is a lot of games, how can I cope with this grave defect in API's, I am going to junk my PC and return to the Amiga because of this defect, to think that I am slowing down my computer when I play these 38 games out of thousands that are out there for the PC.

Thank You Amigaski for bringing this grave defect up, I will always be grateful to you

Palette swap games as follows:

1.  Battletoads
2.  World of Warcraft (now wonder I always lose, I didn't think I was that crummy)
3.  Bionic Commando Rearmed
4.  Soul Calibur IV
5.  Super smash Bros. Brawl
6.  World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade
7.  Phantasy Star Universe
8.  Mortal Kombat Armageddon
9.  Soul Calibur III
10.  Street Fighter II Turbo: Hyper Fighting
11.  Samurai Shodown V Special
12.  Disgaea: Hour of Darkness
13  Soul Calibur II
14.  Supr Smash Bros. Melee
15.  Advance Wars
16.  Diablo II
17. Diablo Gift Pack
18. Sour Calibur
19.  Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven
20.  Mortal Kombat 4
21.  Samurai Shodown IV: Amakusa's Revenge
22.  Heroes of Might and Magic II: The Succession Wars
23. Mortal Kombat Trilogy
24.  Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3
25.  Lufla II: Rise of the Sinistrals  
26.  Mortal Kombat 3
27.  Killer Instinct
28.  Mortal Kombat II
29.  Battletoads In Battlemaniacs
30.  Mortal Kombat
31.  SuperMario Bros. 3
32.  Final Fight
33.  Goldern Axe
34.  Barbarian
35.  Super Mario Bros.
36.  Mario Bros.
37.  Joust
38.  World of Warcraft

There you have it people the 38 games made that have the critical pallette swap error using API,

Thank You Amigaski for this very important information, we are very obliged to you for this information.

Now can you tell us what kind of drugs that you are on, we would all like to get some of it because it has to be really good stuff.

smerf

[Roondar]

Hi,

@Amigaski,

A Palette Swap is a concept most commonly found in fighting games. Palette Swaps occur when two or more characters share the same style sprite or character model with only minor color or cosmetic changes. Although visually similar, pallet swap characters may have very different moves and personalities.

So far as I can find a palette swap is used in only 38 games.

Oh my God that is a lot of games, how can I cope with this grave defect in API's, I am going to junk my PC and return to the Amiga because of this defect, to think that I am slowing down my computer when I play these 38 games out of thousands that are out there for the PC.

Thank You Amigaski for bringing this grave defect up, I will always be grateful to you

Palette swap games as follows:

1.  Battletoads
2.  World of Warcraft (now wonder I always lose, I didn't think I was that crummy)
3.  Bionic Commando Rearmed
4.  Soul Calibur IV
5.  Super smash Bros. Brawl
6.  World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade
7.  Phantasy Star Universe
8.  Mortal Kombat Armageddon
9.  Soul Calibur III
10.  Street Fighter II Turbo: Hyper Fighting
11.  Samurai Shodown V Special
12.  Disgaea: Hour of Darkness
13  Soul Calibur II
14.  Supr Smash Bros. Melee
15.  Advance Wars
16.  Diablo II
17. Diablo Gift Pack
18. Sour Calibur
19.  Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven
20.  Mortal Kombat 4
21.  Samurai Shodown IV: Amakusa's Revenge
22.  Heroes of Might and Magic II: The Succession Wars
23. Mortal Kombat Trilogy
24.  Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3
25.  Lufla II: Rise of the Sinistrals  
26.  Mortal Kombat 3
27.  Killer Instinct
28.  Mortal Kombat II
29.  Battletoads In Battlemaniacs
30.  Mortal Kombat
31.  SuperMario Bros. 3
32.  Final Fight
33.  Goldern Axe
34.  Barbarian
35.  Super Mario Bros.
36.  Mario Bros.
37.  Joust
38.  World of Warcraft

There you have it people the 38 games made that have the critical pallette swap error using API,

Thank You Amigaski for this very important information, we are very obliged to you for this information.

Now can you tell us what kind of drugs that you are on, we would all like to get some of it because it has to be really good stuff.

smerf

I think he meant the practice of changing the onscreen colours in non true colour systems, such as the index based palette colours used on the Amiga and VGA/SVGA 256 colour mode. As in, when you change (or swap) colour one from blue to green and all pixels which where blue are now green.

Which is not relevant in todays games anymore at all because no games made these days still use index colour modes like the old ones did and GFX cards are fast enough* to change every pixel on screen from one colour to another in less time than it takes to draw the pixels on screen anyway.

It was a cool trick back in the days though. Lots of copper tricks are based on the index colour nature of Amiga displays. Colour cycling is also one of the tricks make possible using this technique. Then again, they had to because the machines back then where 'not very good' at displaying true colour images. These days all these effects can be done the brute force way and developers no longer really care about 2D performance anymore.

*) By at least one order of magnitude, probably way more.

[smerf]

Hi,

@Amigaski,

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Sidewinder Precision Pro packet
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  SW PP probably sends the same packet layout as the FFP version. This wasn't
  tested yet, though.

  Sidewinder hat data (for SW 3DP, FFP and PP)
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Value   Direction
   0   Center
   1   Up
   2   Up-Left
   3   Left
   4   Down-Left
   5   Down
   6   Down-Right
   7   Right
   8   Up-Right

  Sidewinder GamePad packet
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Bit    Button
    0   Axis 1 Up   (y)
    1   Axis 1 Down   (y)
    2   Axis 0 Right   (x)
    3   Axis 0 Left   (x)
    4   Button 0   (A)
    5   Button 1   (B)
    6   Button 2   (C)
    7   Button 3   (X)
    8   Button 4   (Y)
    9   Button 5   (Z)
   10   Button 6   (L1)
   11   Button 7   (R1)
   12   Button 8   (Start)
   13   Button 9   (M)
   14   Parity

  Can be either organized as 15 triplets carrying data in bit 0 only, or can
  be five triplets (15 bits) using all three bits. The type of packet the SW
  GP sends seems to be random? Because there can be more than one SW GP
  chained, the data stream can be 15*n or 5*n bits long.  The 15-triplet mode
  allows connecting the SW GP only to a half of the joystick port.
  Transmission speed is 100 or 300 kbit/sec, packet takes 250 us or 150 us
  to transmit, depending on mode.


Joystick extensions
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Additional buttons and hats ala CH Flightstick Pro
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Button state   Meaning
    0   Nothing pressed
    1   Button 1
    2   Button 2
    3   Hat 1 left
    4   Button 3
    5   Button 5
    6   Hat 2 down
    7   Hat 1 down
    8   Button 4
    9   Button 6
   10   Hat 2 right
   11   Hat 1 right
   12   Hat 2 left
   13   Undefined
   14   Hat 2 up
   15   Hat 1 up

  If more than one button is pressed they are either ORed together, or the
  lowest one is signalled, depending on joystick model.


  Hat switch ala TM FCS
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Axis 3 resistance   Meaning
    0.2 kOhm   Up
   20.0 kOhm   Left
   40.0 kOhm   Down
   60.0 kOhm   Right
   82.0 kOhm   Center


  Digital mode of MS SideWinder joysticks
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  SideWinders send data through buttons. The transmission starts on a normal
  measure trigger (out to port 0x201).  Button 0 is used as clock (100 kHz),
  other three buttons carry data. Data is valid at clock 0->1 transition,
  LSB is transmitted first.

Maybe if you read this you will see that the 1khz is far surpassed by a PC joystick that clocks at 100khz or 300 kbit speeds.

and these results came from Radio Shack using Linux drivers on their gameports.

Once again can I get some of those drugs you are using, they have to be really good.

smerf

[persia]

An internal Blu Ray drive will run around US$110.  So it should have been a bog standard PC + US$110.  The news said the US turned off it's non-HD TV last Saturday, where does that leave non-HD Amigas?

I hate to nitpick, but he stated 'probably 15 years ago'.
I'd hardly see you doing any of those things on a bog standard PC from 1994

Heck, most of the PC's out there today can't do all of those things, let alone at the same time.

(Disclaimer: this does not mean I don't feel PC's have long since surpassed the old Amiga, it merely means I feel most people on these boards overstate the capabilities of the average PC)

[smerf]

I think he meant the practice of changing the onscreen colours in non true colour systems, such as the index based palette colours used on the Amiga and VGA/SVGA 256 colour mode. As in, when you change (or swap) colour one from blue to green and all pixels which where blue are now green.

Which is not relevant in todays games anymore at all because no games made these days still use index colour modes like the old ones did and GFX cards are fast enough* to change every pixel on screen from one colour to another in less time than it takes to draw the pixels on screen anyway.

It was a cool trick back in the days though. Lots of copper tricks are based on the index colour nature of Amiga displays. Colour cycling is also one of the tricks make possible using this technique. Then again, they had to because the machines back then where 'not very good' at displaying true colour images. These days all these effects can be done the brute force way and developers no longer really care about 2D performance anymore.

*) By at least one order of magnitude, probably way more.

Hi,

@Roondar,

Yes, I know, but I just wanted to show him just how signicant this is with today's modern graphic cards. I mean really you are comparing a chip that moves at a speed of no more than 14 mhz -28 mhz compared to a modern day graphics card that has core clock speeds of 400 mhz to 800 mhz or faster and is moving pixels like a freight train moving at the speed of light.

I mean come on I like the Amiga too, but after using Amiga Forever on my PC than going back to my Amiga 4000 it does seem like it is moving slow, but I like it like that because it keeps me from turning it on that much, should make it last longer.

smerf

[Roondar]

An internal Blu Ray drive will run around US$110.  So it should have been a bog standard PC + US$110.  The news said the US turned off it's non-HD TV last Saturday, where does that leave non-HD Amigas?

Quite true. However, the fact it was not installed by default will be enough for 95% of the people owning a PC to not have one. Only a very small percentage of computer users actually care enough about such things to add stuff to their computer later (internally that is). I'm guessing most people will just buy a PS3 or standalone Blu-Ray player if they want one.

Case in point: the latest PC rage (well, over where I live anyway) is the netbook style mini-laptops. Everyone wants one. No one cares they have sub-par specs.

As to the Amiga.. Well, it's still a nice retro-puter even without NTSC being broadcast

[Roondar]

Hi,

@Roondar,

Yes, I know, but I just wanted to show him just how signicant this is with today's modern graphic cards. I mean really you are comparing a chip that moves at a speed of no more than 14 mhz -28 mhz compared to a modern day graphics card that has core clock speeds of 400 mhz to 800 mhz or faster and is moving pixels like a freight train moving at the speed of light.

I mean come on I like the Amiga too, but after using Amiga Forever on my PC than going back to my Amiga 4000 it does seem like it is moving slow, but I like it like that because it keeps me from turning it on that much, should make it last longer.

smerf

Like how I develop my C64 programs on WinVice these days and only test them on the real hardware afterwards. Don't wanna break my lovely 8-bitter!

Anyway, you are of course correct - modern day GFX cards run at silly speed (thats several steps above ludicrous speed by the way). The day for Amiga custom chips is long past.... Though that doesn't mean I don't love the old Ami