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Author Topic: PC still playing Amiga catchup  (Read 224062 times)

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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #704 from previous page: June 15, 2009, 04:22:02 AM »
Quote from: mongo;511220
Nope.

...

What's in a name?  "A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet."  Matrox card I still have supports MPEG in hardware.  DirectX isn't always doing it in hardware also if you want to get picky.

>How is this a bug, exactly?

Besides actual bugs, it's flawed that they gradually added functionality that already existed before it was introduced.  Why couldn't they do it in 1.0?

>Besides, DirectX isn't API based. It is an API.

They are both correct.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #705 on: June 15, 2009, 04:25:10 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;511255
On slower GPUs that take an order of magnitude longer to code for.


...

I was speaking in general about API vs. hardware level compatibility not GPU.  

>Which works fine right up to the point your "perfect" app ends up in IRQ or I/O conflict with one or more other applications.

Wrong as already explained.

>lulwut? Of course a driver is going to be required, do you seriously intend to have everyone write their own partial drivers implimenting only the bits they need... Your way would make Windows95 look stable by comparason.

Wrong, drivers aren't needed.

>It does when your application has to acces that functionality in terms of the time it takes to build, it is not that you get more functionality, it's that you get that functionality with far far less effort with an API.

"It takes less effort" is subjective and your opinion nor is it a strong argument given the gains of having hardware compatibility.  

Stop misquoting me-- you did it again.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #706 on: June 15, 2009, 04:26:25 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;511253
Your point was irrelevant as a parallel port from 20 years ago is still a parallel port today, it's not been improved upon or had its function changed in all that time. Yes you could get some PCI card to add back that functionality. But then you're fighting your own complaint about it being nonstandard. Things have changed. USB is pretty much all you'll find on the back of a PC these days. As I stated (and you ignored) once you move beyond the basics and start having to add support for as many layers as have been added to GPUs you are creating sreious headaches for yourself.

...

This shows your ignorance of parallel ports.  As I said "get a clue".  The example is good.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #707 on: June 15, 2009, 04:27:59 AM »
Quote from: GadgetMaster;511225
It seems like all the arguments are falling down. Why not just call it a day Amigaksi eh?

Come on! You've dragged this thread on for far too long. It stopped being funny a long time ago. :rolleyes:


So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.

So far no one has shown why API-based systems are superior to hardware level compatibility.  

So far no one has shown that simple example of palette index swap is faster using APIs.

So I don't know what you are reading.  Perhaps you need glasses.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #708 on: June 15, 2009, 04:33:31 AM »
Quote from: persia;511237
Why is is quicker to have the main CPU(s) interacting with the memory space of the GPU?  Is that just a waste of CPU cycles?  Why should the CPU even be concerned with graphics once it's passed off the information?  Aren't modern GPUs just and extension of what the Amiga was trying to do with it's graphics chips?  

In a way you could say that Amiga lost the computer race but it's ideas and goals won.


The point is that whatever the API-based set up would do, the hardware level interface would do better.  Even GPUs would have to offer similar functionality just as processors offer compatibility between Intel processors and AMD or some other processors.  

So the points are valid as stated:
(1) Faster code
(2) Faster response time (worst case analysis) and exactly knowing what is happening (for real-time stuff)
(3) No drivers required; they all use same driver (like VGA standard)
(4) Smaller and efficient code means less resources are used.
etc.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #709 on: June 15, 2009, 04:35:33 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;511221
Every GPU presently available is faster at writing to it's own register set than all versions of the amiga chipset are at changing their palette registers.

Even my old Permedia 2, which doesn't really count as being a GPU (there's no real programmability), can load it's RGB registers via the FIFO in less time than it takes OCS to do it.

Is that generic enough for you?


Well the example is quite precisely defined.  You need to swap two color indices.  I know even for standard vga there's a fast way to upload entire palette but doing particular indices is slower per index time.  So let's see the code where user requests index 3 swapped with index 15 and works for majority of PCs.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #710 on: June 15, 2009, 06:41:30 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511272
Well the example is quite precisely defined.  You need to swap two color indices.  I know even for standard vga there's a fast way to upload entire palette but doing particular indices is slower per index time.  So let's see the code where user requests index 3 swapped with index 15 and works for majority of PCs.


Out of curiosity, given that most (if not all) PCs are capable of running a 32bit screendepth, how necesary would it be to swap and change parts of the palette? I mean I can understand if you're working in a colour limited environment like OCS or AGA, but truecolour? How common would such a requirement be?
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Offline the_leander

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #711 on: June 15, 2009, 06:45:15 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511269
This shows your ignorance of parallel ports.  As I said "get a clue".  The example is good.


Ok then, what do they have now that wasn't in good quality gear from 20 years ago? And how many itterations are there? Also, just as one final point. What can you do with them now, that wasn't possible 20 years ago?

Either way you failed to address the rest of the point.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #712 on: June 15, 2009, 07:08:25 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511268
I was speaking in general about API vs. hardware level compatibility not GPU.  

>Which works fine right up to the point your "perfect" app ends up in IRQ or I/O conflict with one or more other applications.

Wrong as already explained.


No, I don't think you did, how do you propose to prevent these sorts of conflicts outside of an API, remember we did have this, much to the detriment of stability, see Win95 and 98 for details.

Just because you can create the "perfect" app doesn't mean that everyone can.

Quote from: amigaksi;511268

>lulwut? Of course a driver is going to be required, do you seriously intend to have everyone write their own partial drivers implimenting only the bits they need... Your way would make Windows95 look stable by comparason.

Wrong, drivers aren't needed.


If you're having to reinvent the wheel and have every application bang the metal to the extent the app requires, you are in effect writing a (partial) driver or framework for your application to sit on. You then have the joy of making sure others, doing the same thing don't cause collisions of I/O. As both hardware and applications become ever more complex (see for instance the list of things your average web browser can do and work out just what it would require to do it via your model) I can only see such a model ending in tears.

No, wait. I've actually seen it end in tears (see windows from 95 onwards), which is why most if not all OS's today don't allow for direct hardware banging.

In fact, the more I think about this the more I realise that at some point you'd end up with defacto API's anyway - companies or individuals would begin to specialise and coalesce on different parts of the arch, either sharing outright their individual frameworks or licensing them. You would at some point see these various parts trading information so as to allow for better interoperability and stability or even merging.

In the end you'd end up with either a small group of companies producing a framework from which all else is built, or more or less what you have now with Microsoft.

At which point, why bother having all the extra drain of retaining compatability at all.

Quote from: amigaksi;511268

>It does when your application has to acces that functionality in terms of the time it takes to build, it is not that you get more functionality, it's that you get that functionality with far far less effort with an API.

"It takes less effort" is subjective and your opinion nor is it a strong argument given the gains of having hardware compatibility.  


The gains of hardware compatability, yes, lets add 10, 20, 30% extra silicon to every major I/O chip for stuff that's no longer used and long dead... Your entire argument is based on a fairytale world.

Quote from: amigaksi;511268

Stop misquoting me-- you did it again.


Not in that post I didn't. If you're seriously going to bitch about me breaking up your posts to address single points for the sake of readability (which btw is generally the accepted standard and has been since usenet) then I suggest you leave the internet.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #713 on: June 15, 2009, 07:22:05 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511270
So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.


Liar.

Quote from: Hammer;511178
USB multifunction modules that provides 1 MHz sampling speed .
http://www.iotech.com/products/pdaq3s.htm

USB modules that provides 2 MHz sampling speed.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-15005752_ITM

"High Speed" USB has 125 usec to 4 sec maximum latency with bInterval 125 usec.
"Full Speed" USB has 1 msec to 255 msec maximum latency with bInterval 1 msec.

Most USB devices today are developed using a microcontroller, the microcontroller can be used to
queue up the data  and make it available to the host in larger transfers, thereby decreasing the number
of transfers and increasing the size of each transfer and increasing efficiency.

Depending on many factors the host processor may not be able to transfer the interrupt data at
the requested interval. OS design, driver design, application software, CPU speed, and bus
bandwidth may all limit the host’s ability to meet the obligation to poll for interrupt transfer data
within the required interval.


This is why.

Quote from: amigaksi;511270
So far no one has shown why API-based systems are superior to hardware level compatibility.  


They have, that you dismissed the points out of hand, moved the goalposts or just attacked the poster and continued to bang on about your fairyland instead is irrelevant.

Quote from: amigaksi;511270
So far no one has shown that simple example of palette index swap is faster using APIs.


I believe Karlos did that already, you then moved the goalposts.

Quote from: amigaksi;511270
So I don't know what you are reading.  Perhaps you need glasses.


NO U.
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Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #714 on: June 15, 2009, 07:52:37 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511270
So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.

So far no one has shown why API-based systems are superior to hardware level compatibility.  

So far no one has shown that simple example of palette index swap is faster using APIs.

So I don't know what you are reading.  Perhaps you need glasses.

Seriously nobody in the PC architecture world is trying to catch up with the Amiga. They just couldn't give a damn about a retro platform that only a few people use. Seriously they are not losing sleep over abandoning joystick ports.

Find and quote for us just one PC engineer that is actively working on a mission to play Amiga catchup and I will say that you have ground for your arguments.

Oops! That just negates this whole thread. Sorry!

Can someone Start serving those pankakes. There's a hungry crowd out here. :lol:
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 08:05:41 AM by GadgetMaster »
 

Offline EvilGuy

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #715 on: June 15, 2009, 08:18:11 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511272
So let's see the code where user requests index 3 swapped with index 15 and works for majority of PCs.


Using OpenGL, a GPU could probably swap the entire scene out and redraw it faster than an Amiga could swap two colour indexes.
 

Offline paolone

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #716 on: June 15, 2009, 08:43:17 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511270
1. So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.

2. So far no one has shown why API-based systems are superior to hardware level compatibility.  

3. So far no one has shown that simple example of palette index swap is faster using APIs.

4. So I don't know what you are reading.  Perhaps you need glasses.

Oh, my...

1. http://www.overclock.net/faqs/73418-how-improve-mouse-response-accuracy-changing.html

After many pages reading your silly rants about a joystick port that should be polled faster than on 20-years-later technologies, I simply got bored and entered "USB polling frequency driver" into Google, which gave me many interesting results. Just read what the first result has to say, "Windows by default has the usb ports working at 125Hz of 1000Hz that USB is capable of, giving 8ms response times. You can change the frequency to 250Hz(4ms), 500Hz(2ms) and 1000Hz(1ms) to get better response times" and please don't bug everyone else with your foolish assumptions.

2. That's not true. Everyone else here explained you that APIs are better just because they allow programming in shorter times, compatibility-friendly with more HW configuraions and much more future-proof. Those are advantages that greatly surpass, in magnitude orders, your obsolete concerns about code optimization and speed. Wake up! We are in 2009, we have GHz-range processors out there and we don't need to bang the hardware anymore. You simply DON'T WANT to listen to people saying this.

3. You don't even need an example, it's plain logic. Every time your OCS chip does a clock cycle, any modern, low-value GPU has already executed thousands of instructions.

4. No, he doesn't need glasses. YOU need a reality check. Or maybe a travel ticket to fantasyland, to Amiga Neverland or so.
p.bes

 

Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #717 on: June 15, 2009, 10:16:28 AM »
And so this saga ends.
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Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #718 on: June 15, 2009, 10:29:32 AM »
Quote

So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.

So far no one has shown the advantage of surpassing (or even equaling) the Amiga joystick port.

We could go on and on like this... and the day will come you'll be the only one talking... and maybe (but I'm not even sure) that day you'll discover how useless it is... and that day you'll buy a cheap USB joystick and enjoy nice games of today... wondering... "how did I miss these jewels ?"

I guess we all agree the Amiga's joystick port is more precise than anything available elsewhere. The fact is this doesn't make the Amiga better than anything else... nor does it make anything else catching up the Amiga...

Now if we could simply move on...

BTW: I'm still waiting for you to show me a single Amiga commercial game that cannot be played with an USB joystick because the interface is too slow for it...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 10:31:53 AM by warpdesign »
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #719 on: June 15, 2009, 10:58:25 AM »
Quote from: warpdesign;511298
and that day you'll buy a cheap USB joystick and enjoy nice games of today... wondering... "how did I miss these jewels ?"


why do you think he hasn't played any games of today?

Actually more generally why is it assumed he only uses an Amiga?