PC still playing Amiga catchup

[alexatkin]

I have games on Amiga which take over the system and also come back to OS without it crashing so it's doable.  Also, I myself take over Windows 98SE OS and write directly to VGA memory and then restore the OS as if nothing happened.  In fact, there's a built in function in Windows 98SE although undocumented that lets you take over video registers.

Tweaking is unrelated to using hardware registers.

But you seem to be missing the obvious.  Code is so complicated these days (and hardware banging would not reduce that) that bugs will remain and said bugs cause MUCH greater problems if you are hardware banging than if you are using OS calls and other APIs.

Also, the reason for different versions of Direct X is again partly related to a need to NOT be fully backwards compatible, as its too complicated and actually reduces efficiency in the API.  

Often a newer version will remove older functions, because if you for example coding for Direct X 10 there are more efficient ways to do things and than calling some Direct X 9 function.  Also, developers often need a push to encourage use of the newer versions as if they don't use it, theres no point in the card supporting it.

Microsoft made a particular point for example of saying Direct X 10 was written specifically to take advantage of Windows Vista, with Direct X 9 still being included for backwards compatibility.  They are however, I believe, seperate libraries as a lot of changes in Direct X 10 involved more efficient ways of doing things that would not necessarily work well with some Direct X 9 API calls.

We can even use this example on HTML.  Certain tags get deprecated on newer versions to encourage the use of more efficient/clean/powerful ways of rendering a page layout.  If that did not happen, we would have an aweful mess of HTML 1 code with CSS.  In fact, to some degree that does happen but it would be a whole lot worse if they had not mandated that you cannot do certain things if you are aiming for HTML 3 compliance for example.

So basically, backwards compatibility while being useful is not always a good thing if it means you mixing/matching different ways of doing something.  Yes I know, HTML is not the same as banging registers but the reasons why its not a good idea are very similar.  The more different ways you can achieve the same thing, the more complicated the code and more likely you cause bugs and/or tread on other software causing instability.  You yourself pointed out that with an API you cannot be sure what calling a function is ACTUALLY doing.  Therefore is it logical to allow you do hardware banging, when you might be interfering with the code the API is executing?  

Doing hardware banging and API calls at the same time is just asking for trouble.
Doing just hardware banging is time comsuming to code, not useful for most people.  
So here we are today, mandating ONLY API calls be used.  Because its the safest more stable (and legible) way to code.

You also seemed to miss a point I made earlier.  We are not arguing that the PC is as good at precise timing as the Amiga, we know it isn't.  But the PC is intended to be an all purpose machine not for precise timing.  If you want strict timing you would use a more suitable machine, an embedded board of some kind or, guess what, the Amiga.  It does not mean the PC is "catching up", its the opposite, as the PC no longer NEEDS that functionality for what people use it for.

[smerf]

True... But on the Amiga the hardware, bandwitch, etc... directly limits your creativity
You want to do C64 like graphics (looking in the PAST), you can, sure. But what about 3D ? Yes, you can be creative and want to do some nice beautiful 3D...

You want to do real-time HD raytracing on the PC, fine. You want to render crysis like graphics, fine.

You want to do something like that on the Amiga. You cannot. No matter you use an API or hardware banging code,... You simply cannot. Because the PC took over the Amiga since years. And there's no way it will change.

The PC wins. Over. Next thread...

Hi,

>>True... But on the Amiga the hardware, bandwitch, etc... directly limits your creativity

What are you crazy, the Amiga was the original creative computer, and when I turn mine on today it is usually because I want the thrill of being creative again, not guided like some apple fanboy, or winblows fanboy.


>>But what about 3D ? Yes, you can be creative and want to do some nice beautiful 3D...

UHHH ever hear of the Video toaster with lightwave!!!! FNG's

>>You want to do real-time HD raytracing on the PC, fine. You want to render crysis like graphics, fine.
>>You want to do something like that on the Amiga. You cannot.

Do you really own an Amiga, are you for real, you ever hear of Picasso II, IV. How about GVP IV 24.
Oh well there are FNG's in every group, I still do 3D rendering, in 24 bit high mode, the only thing is that I run my frames through a ADS DVD express to the PC where I use the PC to put it all together for a movie, this takes the Place of my video recorder, and causes no loss in picture quality. Remember the Amiga was the machine back in the 80's and 90's to do this.

and

Amiga won, PC lost, again as usual. Maybe this is why Mr. Bill Gates had an Amiga 1000 on the shelf in his office, he wasn't going to quit until Winblows could do or outdo everything the Amiga could do.

Yes you can name a few areas that the PC wins, but, remember the Amiga was the first with stereo sound, the first with excellent graphics, and one of the first to do 3d rendering and do it well enough to display it in movies. The Amiga also had another advantage over PEE CEE's, when the power went out it could restart and continue the processing that it was programmed to do, can your PC do that, or do you have to turn on your PC to restart it after a power hit. I remember while going through Windows Server school the first thing they said was protect your data, backup, backup, backup. Always have 3 different backups or more that you can turn back to. Could this be because Winblows crashes so much? Could this also be why when you go into banks to make a deposit, or withdrawl they say were sorry we are unable to complete this transaction because our computers are down, could it be that all you young ones now playing with computer's know no better. I would rather retain my data then rely on a buggy, crash and bash program like winblows and in this area my Amiga does very well only one self induced major crash since 1993.

How many of you PC owners running winblows can say that?

Get Real!!!

Switch to a good OS, switch to Linux, it's easy it is free, the programs are free, and if we get enough people using it, we may even switch the support from winblows to linux. A more stable OS than winblows.

Oh I know why most of you are like Apple fanatics, we just want to turn on our computer and be guided by Mr. Jobs  on what programs to use, and make it simple so any moron can use it. The only thing we want to know how to do is turn it on, use it and turn it off.

Right Wayne, RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT

smerf

[ElPolloDiabl]

"could it be that all you young ones now playing with computer's know no better."

I also would like to see a return to wood-fired ovens. Nothing beats flame grilled.:madashell:

[smerf]

"could it be that all you young ones now playing with computer's know no better."

I also would like to see a return to wood-fired ovens. Nothing beats flame grilled.:madashell:

Hi,

With the world economy going the way it is you may soon have your wish. Just think roasting marshmellows over an open wood fire. Potatoes roasting in the hot embers, no more electricity, no more micro wave ovens, no more gas, no more electricity for stupid computers. The way the world economy is going we may all be cooking over wood fires,

GOD BLESS  AMERICA

smerf

[quarkx]

Hi,


Switch to a good OS, switch to Linux, it's easy it is free,

smerf

Well, I am trying to stay far away from this debate, but when I read that Linux is EASY, I just can't help but wondering what he has been smoking! Linux (to a newbee) IS far from easy and one of the most frustrating things in the world to get up and running (unless you have a "Live Boot" cd). I can walk through over the phone anyone through a Windows format and install because Microsoft has  it down to a science. I have many times tried to "get into Linux" by trying to install it on various machines, and it has always failed for one reason or another. Linux is wayyy to advanced for the uneducated home user.

But this is way off topic, I have been hearing the same song and dance from Linux fans since 1996 and so far nothing has changed. ABSOLUTELY nothing except that some brand names have tried to bring linux out on their machines (ASUS) and even 90% of those sold with Linux, were sold with an XP license and  upgraded to XP.

[smerf]

Well, I am trying to stay far away from this debate, but when I read that Linux is EASY, I just can't help but wondering what he has been smoking! Linux (to a newbee) IS far from easy and one of the most frustrating things in the world to get up and running (unless you have a "Live Boot" cd). I can walk through over the phone anyone through a Windows format and install because Microsoft has  it down to a science. I have many times tried to "get into Linux" by trying to install it on various machines, and it has always failed for one reason or another. Linux is wayyy to advanced for the uneducated home user.

But this is way off topic, I have been hearing the same song and dance from Linux fans since 1996 and so far nothing has changed. ABSOLUTELY nothing except that some brand names have tried to bring linux out on their machines (ASUS) and even 90% of those sold with Linux, were sold with an XP license and  upgraded to XP.

Hi,

@quarkx

OK, Have you tried Ubuntu, this Linux version is so good that even Maximum PC, has put articles on it, it is one of the easiest Linux versions on the PC to install. There are only a couple of interactions between the user and the computer, just RTFS (read the frappin screen), all updates to Ubuntu are easy to install and about 10 to 20 times faster than Winblows. Now here is one for the books, I just went to print out a picture on some glossy inkjet paper, in Linux no problem, it took it and ran and gave me an excellent print, then I tried the same picture on glossy paper with Windows Vista (your trouble free easy software for the masses) not only did it print the picture to dark, but it only printed half of it (sigh) and I thought I would get a better print from Winblows, but lets face it Winblows has not let me down yet, it loses data, it never does what I think it will do, I have to try it 2 or 3 times before I get it done the way I want it. You can keep your OS for the masses, I stay with the hard to set up Ubuntu Linux, keep my data, and have it do stuff the right way the first time I do it and you know what it cost me to get stuff done right, not $159.00 like Windows Home Version of Vista, but $.12 cents what it cost for me to put the ISO on a CD and install it. By the way don't try to burn an ISO in VISTA because they gave you burn programs but no ISO burn, but you can get ImgBurn off the internet to burn ISO's.

smerf

[smerf]

"could it be that all you young ones now playing with computer's know no better."

I also would like to see a return to wood-fired ovens. Nothing beats flame grilled.:madashell:

HI,

@Fanscale,

No, you don't know any better, Microsoft is trying to take over the compute world, they are trying to knock out all competition, they are doing underhanded stuff, like telling software companies that they will only support Microsoft based products, or they will lose there license rights for Windows, since Microsoft owns about 80% of the computing world, they can get away with this. Pretty soon Microsoft will be telling you what you can or cannot put on your computer, if they don't like what you are doing they can shut down your computer, ( I know mine has been shut down 10 times already for doing hardware upgrades during the past year that I have owned VISTA) I am getting to know the people in India better than I know my co-workers at work. So keep supporting Winblows, one day you will be screaming like I am, I just learned it faster, Microsoft is out to control your private computer.

smerf

[quarkx]

Hi,

@quarkx

OK, Have you tried Ubuntu,

smerf

Yes, Infact Ubuntu sent me about 20 CD's a few years back to try to "Convert" me, but, to be honest, all I got to work was the "live CD" and I thought the brown gui was just plain Fugly.

Second, When I talk of Windows, I am only talking XP, NT4 Win 2000 etc, because, even Microsoft knows that VISTA is the worst piece of software since Windows ME. EVEN Microsoft BOB was better than VISTA Period. You can't compare anything the VISTA, because there is just no Argument. EVEN GW BASIC was a better Code than VISTA. Even Mr. Gates has eluded many times on his displeasure with VISTA. That is the reason for MS rushing out Windows 7, because the big Corporations will not put up with Vista. I guess it is easy to match the worst OS ever written to Linux, and Linux will shine every time, But the simple fact is over 10 years have past and linux has not made any more dent in the real world. It is sad, but like Amiga, Linux will never be accepted by the general public.
But enough, because I don't want to be looked at as trolling here.

[Karlos]

@quarkx

Regarding the default gui on ubuntu, you do realise that you can change the entire look and feel of pretty much any linux distro as much or as little as you like, right? There are a dozen window managers, all of which are customisable to the hilt.

As for Vista, yeah it isn't great. But it does have DX10. Which is all I really use it for

[quarkx]

@quarkx

Regarding the default gui on ubuntu, you do realise that you can change the entire look and feel of pretty much any linux distro as much or as little as you like, right? There are a dozen window managers, all of which are customisable to the hilt.

As for Vista, yeah it isn't great. But it does have DX10. Which is all I really use it for

The CD's they sent me, it wasn't all that apparent, it would not even use my second monitor at the time, but I only had used it of about 20 minutes and in that time nothing impressed me about it, so I had tossed it.
Also XP CAN use DX 10, it originally was coded on XP, but MS chose to disable it in XP for fear that it would absolutely KILL any chance of selling VISTA. There was some 3rd party trying to restore DX10 on XP about a year ago, but I admit, I have not kept up to date on it.
When I had my computer store 90% of my bench work was "Downgrading" VISTA to XP on new computers. 100% of the 500 or so ASUS EECPC's that I sold, the customers had requested to have XP installed before they got them out of the store. (This was the original batch of EEC's) So, I can honestly say after 20 years in the computer field, only about 10% of the tech's I have ever worked with were Linux fans. The public ALWAYS ignored linux., and the thousands of PC's I have built over the years, all (100%) were Windows boxes, because that is what the customer wanted.

[paolone]

1. You are speculating it's "progress" to use only APIs.  It's FACTUALLY a big hit on creativity.

2. In other cases for real-time scenarios, Amiga hardware level compatibility makes it superior to API versions of the same program on PC.  

3. Your 100Mhz or 2.6+GHz processor does not affect your I/O speed.

1. We must have two different ideas about what 'creativity' is, so I won't answer to this.

2. Perfect. So please write some assembly lines that poll @1KHz the damn 9-pin joystick port on my old Amiga 1200 and let's run it (natively) on my SAM too. I'm curious to see if the "Amiga hardware level compatibility" is still a working, good idea. A we're not talking about PCs, here.

3. Obvious. Peripherals are supposed to work under precise TIMINGS. A 2.6 GHz processor won't make my USB pen faster, but this isn't what a higher CPU frequency is supposed to do.

[smerf]

@quarkx

Regarding the default gui on ubuntu, you do realise that you can change the entire look and feel of pretty much any linux distro as much or as little as you like, right? There are a dozen window managers, all of which are customisable to the hilt.

As for Vista, yeah it isn't great. But it does have DX10. Which is all I really use it for

Hi,

@Karlos

Yea we were all suckered into buying VISTA for DX10, then after it came out, they upgraded it to 10.1 which threw a lot of the new amazing cards out, causing bugs in their coding. Case in point nvidia 8800 cards. So really you are using DX10.1, I could look back in my Max PC mags to put down all the details but very few people know about that.

I like Ubuntu for the ease of use, fast loading, fast updates, and FREE SOFTWARE!!!
What more could you ask for. The Synaptec software manager is great, makes putting on new software in Linux a breeze and compiz is an amazing gui. Just Love It. Plus I can put it on as many computers as I want without breaking any EULA's. The Open Office Suite is fantastic, and GIMP is always good and improving. Now if we could only get the game Co.s to write games for Linux, they would put MS out of business.

smerf

[Hammer]

If you boot DOS in REAL mode and directly access sound blaster registers, there are no TSRs running nor anything else and your IOPL=0 so nothing is trapping your using the ports.  If such an application works, you know it's hardware compatible with Soundblaster.

As an example, Gravis Ultrasound Max uses TSR Soundblaster emulation. GF1 chip is missing the AdLib-compatible OPL2 circuitry.

[Hammer]

Suppose you want to use mode 640*480*16 paletted mode and read palette register #3 and swap with palette register #15.  I can do that with a few IN/OUTs using standard VGA registers or doing MOVE.Ws to $DFF186/$DFF19E on Amiga or a few LDA/STA on 8-bit computers.  Let's see your API calls to do that.

Why 2D when you can have 3D+shaders on XNA framework?

Refer to development issues between PS3 vs Xbox 360.

 Since you seem to be pretty up to date with all the latest video cards and hype of APIs and video cards are frequently updated and are using best possible technology-- let's see how efficient their APIs are.

How efficient would it be on time and money to recoding the same software on different platforms?  Setting up screen resolution is not a large issue in professional gaming creation.

On Amiga, if CBM didn't go bust, would "hitting-the-metal" work on "clean break" Hombre based Amiga?

Amiga Hombre based PC (includes HP PA-7150 RISC microprocessor) runs legacy 68k AmigaOS software through emulation.

[Hammer]

Amiga seems tons of games that go directly to hardware and still have a multitasking OS. It's wonderful that some systems allow you to take over the hardware and use all of it for your application-- you really get to use what you paid for and it works in general not just for your Amiga.

What happens to Deluxe Music if Protracker "hitting the metal" Paula’s audio hardware? Who will arbitrate the hardware access?

[amigaksi]

As an example, Gravis Ultrasound Max uses TSR Soundblaster emulation. GF1 chip is missing the AdLib-compatible OPL2 circuitry.

You lost track of the point.  There are SB cards that are backward compatible on hardware level.  I proved it by running in REAL DOS mode.