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Author Topic: PC still playing Amiga catchup  (Read 218294 times)

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Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #149 on: June 01, 2009, 11:57:39 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;508643
And no I've done Linux, its multitasking is worse than Windows and definatley worse than Amiga.

Now I know you are having a giraffe. What was it, a version 1 kernel on a 486?
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #150 on: June 01, 2009, 11:57:43 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;508642
Something has to be wrong there.

My machine is nearly a year old now. Admittedly it was pretty high-spec when I built it but I wanted something that was going to last a while.

intel Q9450 @ 2.66 GHz
intel X48 chipset
4GB DDR3 1600 (running at 1333 but with 7-7-7 latency)
500GB Seagate HDD
XFX GTX260 640MHz version


As I said earlier, I do use Vista (64-bit home premium ed) whenever I want to indulge in a spot of gaming. Admittedly, it's not as responsive as Linux, but I couldn't possibly describe it as slow, not by any stretch of the imagination.


FFS Karlos!!!!  Look at your specs.  You don't have a garden variety PC there.  It runs Vista ok?  No kidding!!  Keep throwing a gazillion CPU's and gigabytes of super fast RAM, ANYTHING will fly.  Thats the point.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #151 on: June 02, 2009, 12:00:03 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;508646
FFS Karlos!!!!  Look at your specs.  You don't have a garden variety PC there.  It runs Vista ok?  No kidding!!  Keep throwing a gazillion CPU's and gigabytes of super fast RAM, ANYTHING will fly.  Thats the point.


I didn't suggest it was a garden variety, merely recent. Less recent than yours, too. Ironically it cost about the same to build as the A1. Less if you factor in inflation :-o

What do you regard as a "garden variety" specification PC anyway?

I've used also Vista 32-bit with no problem on a 1.86 GHz core 2 duo, 2GB with 128MB Radeon X300. It was still perfectly snappy.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 12:06:12 AM by Karlos »
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Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #152 on: June 02, 2009, 12:02:39 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;508642
......running at 1333 but with 7-7-7 latency)

I think the memory standard guys missed a trick here. They could have made it 1337.:lol:
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #153 on: June 02, 2009, 12:03:40 AM »
Quote from: GadgetMaster;508649
I think the memory standard guys missed a trick here. They could have made it 1337.:lol:


I have been itching to try it at 6-6-6, just to see what happens...
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Offline bloodline

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #154 on: June 02, 2009, 12:15:58 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;508650
I have been itching to try it at 6-6-6, just to see what happens...



I set my memory timing to something stupidly low (especially given the cheapness of my RAM modules).. the machine just got stuck into a reset cycle... I had to reset the BIOS to restore.

Offline B00tDisk

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #155 on: June 02, 2009, 12:17:02 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;508646
FFS Karlos!!!!  Look at your specs.  You don't have a garden variety PC there.  It runs Vista ok?  No kidding!!  Keep throwing a gazillion CPU's and gigabytes of super fast RAM, ANYTHING will fly.  Thats the point.


What about running Vista in VirtualPC on a single core 2200mhz AMD with a gig of RAM, already running XP as the host?

I do that on a pretty regular basis, and Vista works fine.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #156 on: June 02, 2009, 12:17:30 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;508654
I set my memory timing to something stupidly low (especially given the cheapness of my RAM modules).. the machine just got stuck into a reset cycle... I had to reset the BIOS to restore.


My motherboard has "dual bios", so that shouldn't be a problem. You can roll back any destructive change.
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Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #157 on: June 02, 2009, 12:18:01 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;508650
I have been itching to try it at 6-6-6, just to see what happens...

I don't think it will even break a sweat TBH. But why the DEVIL would you want to do that?:hammer:
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #158 on: June 02, 2009, 12:21:20 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;508658
My motherboard has "dual bios", so that shouldn't be a problem. You can roll back any destructive change.


Oh... So we are gonna have a "My BIOS is bigger than your's" argument eh? Fine... most of my machines use EFI... hmmm that's probably not something I want to brag about  :roflmao:

Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #159 on: June 02, 2009, 12:23:57 AM »
Quote from: GadgetMaster;508659
I don't think it will even break a sweat TBH. But why the DEVIL would you want to do that?:hammer:


Well, Diablo III is coming out soon...
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Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #160 on: June 02, 2009, 12:27:18 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;508662
Well, Diablo III is coming out soon...

I know someone who incorporated his company on the 6th June 2006.

...But I digress further off topiic
 

Offline adz

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #161 on: June 02, 2009, 01:16:52 AM »
@Karlos

Set your RAM:FSB ratio to 1:1 and then you'll be able to get some uber low latencies :cool:
 

Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #162 on: June 02, 2009, 04:07:41 AM »
Quote from: Trev;457107
That's an entirely arbitrary statement. My PC boots MS-DOS in less than one second (after POST, which takes a bit longer--system firmware is quite complex these days, with more features than your average Amiga). That's much faster than any of my Amigas. Is it a useful measurement? No, because there's no direct correlation between the two systems, and ...

... here's where someone argues that no one uses MS-DOS. Well, no one uses AmigaOS, either. I'd wager there are more active MS-DOS users (millions, even) than there are active AmigaOS users. If you don't believe me, then you don't spend enough time in front of embedded systems.

Everyone really does need to straighten out their definitions of real-time. Karlos is talking computer science, everyone else is talking user perception. There is no "real-time" in user perception. Humans are neat, but we have lots of built-in latency. Milliseconds have passed before I know I've pricked my finger, for example.

Personally, I can do more useful work in a shorter amount of time on my Windows system (Core i7 920, 6GB RAM, GeForce 8800 GTS 512 (G92), blah blah blah). The Amigas are just for fun.


Hi,

@trev

Sorry but my real time is real time not user perception, I mean time with stop watches doing real tasks like printing out a database, or printing out a letter. So far in three tests with both users turning on their computers at the same time, the Amiga has managed to send its preassigned letter to the printer faster than my Q6600 windows box gaming pc or my Q6600 Penquin machine. These were also timed with a stopwatch during the time of these tests (real time) no gigaflops, megaflops, bips, sips, or sh*ts  just true man hour working time from time of turn on to process complete. Of course the Amiga cannot do trillions of math calcs a second, it wasn't made for that, it was made for a home computer fanatic to print a letter or make a database. now lets talk keeping your data safe, the Amiga 4000 has had my data on it since 1993, can you say the same about your then modern 286 or 386, oh you don't have that machine yet, it is obsolete, already in the trash, well even if you did I doubt that windows 3.1 still has your data since it was well known for crashing, but lets face it PC's keep a lot of people employed for solving problems when their machines do crash. These people are called IT experts, they come to your machine and solve your problem, usually with an re-install of winblows. Now Linux is different I have not had a crash on Linux during the last 3 years, and therefore have lost no data. Even through numerous upgrades, as a matter of fact I am using Ubuntu for this post on an old Toshiba laptop running at 1.1 gighertz with a 20 gig hard drive and 384 meg of memory. Windows 7 turned it down today because it needs 512 meg just to run.

I am not an Amiga Fan Boy, I just like the machine for what it does and it still amazes me today for what it does and what it can still do with upgrades, at least it is not in the trash like most of your 286 / 386 machines, that alone should tell you something, by the way have you found a 286.org site yet.

smerf
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #163 on: June 02, 2009, 05:25:04 AM »
Quote from: Linde;508527
Sorry, but what does size optimization have to do with speed? That misconception takes away any relevance your argument might have had. Mind you, though, most of the games I play update the screen well faster than the monitor is able to. The reason that there might be some slowdown is that there is generally a lot more going on behind Far Cry 2 than Lotus III. And why would anyone link MFC to a "simple" Hello World?
...

Do you bother to read the posts that you reply to?  Looks like not in this case.  I stated not many people optimize programs (which is a fact): "Although PC horsepower allows it do 30fs/60fps, not many people spend the time to optimize and make their code/videos efficient since so much memory/hard drive storage is available. I just saw a "hello world" example on modern OSes give an executable output of 1 MB since it was linked and tied to some multi-function crap (MFC)."

I just compiled a hello world program and it was 1 MB; doesn't mean all compilers do that or you can't change the settings and eliminate the MFC.  As far as your blunder that size has no relation to speed, ever check MPEG videos.  If they were uncompressed, it would affect the speed.  I am surprised to hear this argument from a PC enthusiast since PC memory speed is slower than processor speed so dealing with compressed animations and decompressing them with a fast algorithm would be preferred over uncompressed animations.

>Regarding "running animations from a floppy disk"... The PC too has a demo scene, and some of the best programmers cram down pretty damn impressive (real-time) animations with sound and music in less than 1k. Pretty hard to imagine happening on the Amiga, no?

I'll guarantee that it won't work with nonstandard hardware on everyone's PCs.

>The A1200 was pretty weak compared to contemporary PC's which had already done fluid 256 color graphics and 16 bit multi-channel sound for some time (even an 8 channel 16-bit stereo consumer sound card had popped up a few months before).

You seemed to missed some posts in this thread (or ignored them).  Just because some 8-channel 16-bit card is available does NOT mean that everyone has it or that you can utilize it in comparing Amiga with PC.  With new hardware add-ons, any computer can do anything.  Talk about hardware that's available to most homes and compare with that-- then you can write some application and know that it will work on 99% of PCs out there.

>Really? And no, doing it wouldn't have much of an impact on performance on a multi GHz multi-core processor either way, but it would certainly be a waste of cycles to sample it that often.

Bullcrap.  You have NO understanding of the gameport nor I/O timing on PCs.  I/O is much much slower than even memory.  I suggest you try to time the gameport yourself.  And no, gameport is NOT obsolete because Vista doesn't have a driver for it.  It exists out there in millions of homes.  It was on the PCI surround sound Mag Dog Audio board I purchased a couple of years ago.  It's NOT a waste of cycles to sample at 1Khz or above.  I wrote a joystick recorder program and the time between changes of direction/firing goes to less than 1 ms in some cases for games like River-raid and others.  I can say sampling audio at 44Khz is a WASTE of space, but it's required to capture all possible audible frequencies.  Similarly, sampling joystick at 60Hz is NOT good enough.

>If we are going to look at it like a general purpose I/O port (and yes, I've done that too.) why not compare it to USB 3.0? Let's just say that it's in a different league when it comes to high precision timing.

Are you like confused?  USB 3.0 has NOTHING to do with high precision timing.  USB 3.0 is a specification; it's not out there in any joysticks.  Show me a joystick that uses USB 2.0!  Once again comparing Amiga with nonexistent products or products that hardly anyone has.  Get real.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #164 from previous page: June 02, 2009, 05:46:44 AM »
Quote from: DonnyEMU;508566
I have stayed out of this topic, but I agree with Karlos quite a bit on what he's been saying. There are a lot of modern pitfalls in both PCs and Mac that don't exist with Amigas, but honestly if I had to say it my PC today lets me do 1000 times more (and when you boot up actually doing 1000 more things in the background that you don't know about)  and working faster in realtime than I could ever do on Classic Amiga hardware and still quite a bit on newer A1 technology.
...

Nice story (with some speculations), but the point was is PC playing catch-up in some areas when compared to Amiga.  For example, what has been mentioned so far is in split-screens VGA standard only supports two split screens.  Amiga joystick ports are superior to PCs.  Amiga boots up faster.  And a few more things will be mentioned...

>The people who complain the loudest about the PC are usually fanboys of other platforms who are "religious" about their OS experience, and people who have gaps in knowledge about their OS and how to get help not to have issues..

Usually.  And in other cases its people who know more about both platforms.

>There are user groups and places they could go to learn.

Or teach.
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