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Offline TheMagicM

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #104 on: May 31, 2009, 04:43:38 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;457196
that my friend is the elephant in the room that you can't see:  you are running a 7 year old OS on hardware specs that are more or less 12 months old.  try running XP on a p3 600 with 256 meg ram, hey that was the average PC when XP came out.  And run Word 2003, a web browser an email client and see how much you enjoy it.  you might not even be able to open the start menu for all the hard drive groaning you'll get..


p3 600? LOL.  get with the times.  Yea its great going on a long trip in a 1974 VW Beetle but its not as fun and comfortable as my wife's 2008 Chevy Tahoe.

Quote

your system runs ok because you are using the "if its slow, then throw more hardware at it' philosphy.


Actually, that never crossed my mind.  Systems nowadays, if you build your own, are VERY affordable.  If you're using a p3 600, then its your own fault, go wallow in your own sorrow.  I have no sympathy for you.

Its not my fault XP is 7 years old.  I upgrade my systems to keep up with the times.  I'm glad XP runs well on my systems at work.   At home, I'm ballin' with a HP laptop runnin openSuSE 11.

Too many people bash XP when its their dinosaur hardware causing the bottleneck.
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Offline persia

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #105 on: May 31, 2009, 04:52:52 AM »
My wife has throw away technology, a single core P4 @3 GHz.  It runs Vista Ultimate just fine.  You have to either image the 90% of people who buy PCs are either thick or sheep (or maybe thick sheep) to explain why the PC dominates the market.  People aren't stupid, there are reasons why people buy PCs and not Amigas.  The Amiga was phenomenal a decade and a half ago, it failed to capitalise on that superiority and was left an orphan.  They Amiga is a couple orders of magnitude out of date as far as price versus performace goes.  I can buy a gig of Ram for a PC for less money than I can buy a meg of Ram for my Amiga.

Yeah, I love my Amiga but it just feels old, the graphics are poor, the choice of software extremely limited, and a rogue program will bring the whole system to a guru because there's no memory protection.

I can't play the game and pretend it's 1992 again...



Quote from: stefcep2;457196
that my friend is the elephant in the room that you can't see:  you are running a 7 year old OS on hardware specs that are more or less 12 months old.  try running XP on a p3 600 with 256 meg ram, hey that was the average PC when XP came out.  And run Word 2003, a web browser an email client and see how much you enjoy it.  you might not even be able to open the start menu for all the hard drive groaning you'll get..

your system runs ok because you are using the "if its slow, then throw more hardware at it' philosphy.
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Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #106 on: May 31, 2009, 05:02:43 AM »
Hi,

WOW!!!

What a discussion on which computer is better, this is an Amiga site of course and so by that I declare the Amiga the winner, all you Linux and Windose users are LOSERS just by the fact that you are on an Amiga site.

Lets face it a computer is only as fast as a user can use it. There is no way any of you can type faster than your machine, therefore almost 100% of you are using too much horse power for what you are using it for. Even when you play the most awesome games like fallout 3, crysis, far cry, doom 3, the computers today move much faster than what your senses can see. The only thing you are trying to do is get faster frame rates even though your eyes cannot see them, that is why most TV sets use the 22 fps rate anything above that is quite useless as far as the eye can see.

BUT

When you talk about computers you must deal with real time, stability, and the process of securing your data (the most expensive component) and I say the Amiga wins hands down, my Amiga has secured my data since 1993, its OS has been stable since OS 3.1 and has remained stable through OS 3.9, this is how I rate a computer, in real time it boots faster, loads the programs I use faster, which allows me to complete my projects faster and get done with my work faster in real time, it then retains my data, and can back up my data faster then a winblows machine, for what I do on my Amiga I don't care about color, or games because it just don't matter.

Now the only other OS that I am beginning to trust is Linux, it has shown me no problems for 3 years, and has the same fun as the original Amiga but has all the modern conveniences, it has a super update feature, simple backup (like the Amiga) and seems to have a loyal following like the Amiga did, the only thing is that the Linux fan boys seem like a bunch of snobs that don't understand how you can't see how to solve your own problems when you have one, they are the typical computer nerds that are so smart that they just don't understand why you can't solve that problem when it is so simple to them.

So based on data retention, non fatal crashes, little to no virus, spyware, and malware, and no registry I claim the Amiga the winner, it may be a tortoise but I think it still wins the race.

AMIGA FOREVER

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Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #107 on: May 31, 2009, 05:49:01 AM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;457201
p3 600? LOL.  get with the times.  Yea its great going on a long trip in a 1974 VW Beetle but its not as fun and comfortable as my wife's 2008 Chevy Tahoe.



Actually, that never crossed my mind.  Systems nowadays, if you build your own, are VERY affordable.  If you're using a p3 600, then its your own fault, go wallow in your own sorrow.  I have no sympathy for you.

Its not my fault XP is 7 years old.  I upgrade my systems to keep up with the times.  I'm glad XP runs well on my systems at work.   At home, I'm ballin' with a HP laptop runnin openSuSE 11.

Too many people bash XP when its their dinosaur hardware causing the bottleneck.


Ok someone ELSE who "just doesn't get it".

I don't use a P3 anymore, silly.  I know that to get a current  MS OS running as opposed to walking you need hardware 5 years ahead of the OS. BUT THE P3 WAS HARDWARE THAT WAS COMMONLY AROUND WHEN XP WAS RELEASED.  THATS WHAT XP WAS MADE TO RUN ON.  Its the hardware advancement 7 years later not the OS that improves the user experience.  You just basically poved you still can't see the elephant in the room..
 

Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #108 on: May 31, 2009, 05:58:18 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;457212
Ok someone ELSE who "just doesn't get it".

I don't use a P3 anymore, silly.  I know that to get a current  MS OS running as opposed to walking you need hardware 5 years ahead of the OS. BUT THE P3 WAS HARDWARE THAT WAS COMMONLY AROUND WHEN XP WAS RELEASED.  THATS WHAT XP WAS MADE TO RUN ON.  Its the hardware advancement 7 years later not the OS that improves the user experience.  You just basically poved you still can't see the elephant in the room..


Hi,

@Stef

How can he see the elephant in the room when he has his head stuck up the elephants a**?

smerf
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Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #109 on: May 31, 2009, 06:15:29 AM »
Quote from: persia;457202
My wife has throw away technology, a single core P4 @3 GHz.  It runs Vista Ultimate just fine.  You have to either image the 90% of people who buy PCs are either thick or sheep (or maybe thick sheep) to explain why the PC dominates the market.  People aren't stupid, there are reasons why people buy PCs and not Amigas.  The Amiga was phenomenal a decade and a half ago, it failed to capitalise on that superiority and was left an orphan.  They Amiga is a couple orders of magnitude out of date as far as price versus performace goes.  I can buy a gig of Ram for a PC for less money than I can buy a meg of Ram for my Amiga.

Yeah, I love my Amiga but it just feels old, the graphics are poor, the choice of software extremely limited, and a rogue program will bring the whole system to a guru because there's no memory protection.

I can't play the game and pretend it's 1992 again...


Hi,

@persia my old friend

I can't believe you said that about the Amiga, I put memory in my Amiga 4000 from all the old PC's that I threw out in the trash, my 4 gig hard drive came from an old HP, my cd drive came from an old no name computer that I built back in 1987.

Now I do find the software quite limited because no new software is being made, but I am finding the old software and getting it at real cheap prices or free, I just picked up a whole box of software from a friend at work, he was just going to throw it out along with his A500 and he had some good software that cost about $199 when it first came out. Sure the Amiga is feeling old because it is, this doesn't take the fun out of using one, as a matter of fact I am having more fun with it now than before because I can get the software that I always wanted cheap or free, and yes I do own quite a new modern PC, that plays all the modern games quite nicely. Do I use my winblows machine for important work, not really, I don't trust it to hold my important data therefore it is only used for games, I use Ubuntu Linux for my music, photo's and movies but I use my Amiga with Pen Pal to keep track of all my software, my insurance data base, and other important stuff like my check book and since the Amiga is not hooked up to the internet it is bascially free from prying eyes. Yes the Amiga is old but I will bet you that you still can't out type it.

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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #110 on: May 31, 2009, 06:36:05 AM »
Quote from: Trev;457132
I don't think anyone's attempting to argue that a synthesized violin is a better instrument than a Stradivarius; however, the Amiga is not a Stradivarius.

I'm not an advocate of upgrading for upgrading's sake, so if a process designed for the Amiga still does the job it was meant to do, good for the process and the Amiga. There comes a time, however, when that system's total cost of ownership (or the risks associated with a possible failure of that system) will outweigh its return. Anyone that doesn't upgrade at that point in time (or really, slightly before) is putting their livelihood at risk.

EDIT: Let's also not forget Amiga.org's own recent history re: PHP obsolescence.


Good point-- not upgrading for upgrading's sake.  If it serves the purpose, why bother with a new machine.  Actually, my Toshiba 366Mhz laptop outperformed the HP 1.4Ghz laptop in watching DVDs since it had hardware decoding vs. software decoding.  That should tell you the basic picture that clock speed isn't everything.  

And from the standards point of view, small subset of hardware features among PCs worldwide are being used in software out there in order to support the most customer base.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #111 on: May 31, 2009, 06:51:51 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;457140
Wrong. There were > 100 CPU processes, not GPU processes. There was precisely one CPU process for that simulation. "ps aux wwwf | less" is hardly going to report on GPU processes, now is it? :roflmao:

Four of those CPU processes are capable of being in the run state concurrently provided they aren't making atomic operations on the same area of memory. Which is highly unlikely because this is a virtual memory system. Most of the processes have no idea the others exist, let alone have the opportunity to lock something they own.

Just for you, I've dumped the current process list. Too big to post here, so here it is: process.txt

I make that 171 processes at the moment. You should see it when it is actually busy.
...


So you maintain that running 1 process or 171 processes does not affect the response time at all?  That's where your blunder was.  It was a simple point not really that significant compared to the point of you not understanding I/O transfers of joystick ports.

>-edit-

I got lucky and I noticed this edit while looking for something else in the thread.

>Oh, and as for the rest of your objection:

>My god, you are living so far in the past it's hilarious. EUAE runs just fine, even on top of that CUDA simulation.

You keep missing the point.  Your point is running all those processes DID NOT affect the user responsiveness at all.  That is violation of law of conservation.

>If you can't time a 500khz event properly on your PC without sync going off it's probably because you are either

>1) Using a crap OS (which given the rest of your assertion I'm assuming is windows)
>2) Using a crap PC. Harder to verify, but not impossible.

It's easier to do in Windows 98SE or older OSes where you can take over the system.  And it's easier to do with older systems than newer ones since newer systems have problems installing Windows 98SE because they have too much nonstandard hardware requiring whole slew of new driver database that are more bloated than previous versions.

>As for your claim the machine is somehow too maxed out with the simulation to run EUAE. try reading the specifications for PCI Express 2.0 16-lane and then come back when you've ...

Never made that claim.  Straw-man argument.

>I'm using a decent OS on good hardware. It may have escaped your attention back there in the 1980's, but present day POSIX compliant systems now require nanosecond accuracy for timing. The Linux kernel uses a busy loop to calibrate the maximum execution speed of your CPU at boot time. With this, you can, if you need it, have a busy wait that is accurate to a few machine cycles, though it will cost you load.

I was wondering when you would ever get around to replying to my point of timing accuracy.  Demanding some nanosecond and people having it NOW in their PCs are two different things.  Current timers (up to Windows XP era) relied on PIT (8253) using 1.19318Mhz which comes to 840ns.  And even that is unuseable given other things happening in the system.  And once again you fail to understand I/O bottlenecks interfering with your so-called nanosecond accuracy.  Amiga does the 558ns accurate register modifications with little effect on anything else running in the system since it's done via the Copper.  For Amiga it's a breeze; for PC, you need to get one of the latest PCs that has implemented the "nanosecond" accuracy which inexorably will have problems given the support for backward compatibility.

>Well, again, you are failing to differentiate the OS from the machine. For the nth time, Windows != PC. Use a decent OS, you don't get these problems.

You replied to the same message twice; but anyway, my answer is the same as well-- you need to understand what a PC is.  I am a low-level programmer; I hardly use the OS for anything.  Whatever software I write is what is potentially possible with the PC.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #112 on: May 31, 2009, 07:01:29 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;457191
You still didn't clarify how you were doing this timing, or on which OS. Therefore your assertion cannot at this stage be solely blamed on the hardware. For example, if you disable speedstep in your application and wrote your delay loop in assembler, you can pretty much get it down to bus cycle level of accuracy.

If you were relying on OS level sleep()/usleep() type functions you aren't going to get accuracy any more than you get from a DoIO() on the timer.device, probably worse, in fact.


...

It works on all Windows platforms unmodified since it's using inline ASM-- IN AL,DX with DX set to port of joystick.  Dynamic frequency is disabled which by the way you should know affects the RDTSC timer as well.

>If it makes you happy to believe that, carry on.

You miss that point again.  You can't talk about some video cards' capabilities unless it's standard among majority of PCs out there.  Otherwise, I'll hook up some custom hardware to my Amiga like a laptop motherboard and use it for slave processing.

>Well, you got me there. I don't have a parallel port. I'm really up the creek without a paddle now. I wonder whether or not USB would make a reasonable alternative for control applications? I have about 12 of those to play with.

That's a lame excuse and selfish one.  So you don't see any use for a parallel port-- try searching the web-- you'll see thousands of people who have done parallel port based projects.  USB requires hardware to do parallel signal processing.  With a parallel port,  you have the digital lines to use for control lines.  

>FWIW, I don't have a joystick port either. Tragic, really.

It is.  Joystick ports are also very useful for Amiga users so dismissing one of it's strengths by thinking it's not that useful is a lame excuse.  Look at your absurd style of arguing-- first you claim there's nothing superior on Amiga; now that it's staring you in the face that there are things still superior on Amiga, you want to downplay them or make them seem that they are useless.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #113 on: May 31, 2009, 07:10:41 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;457193
You don't say...



Good grief. AGP is obsolete, PCI Express 2 is the standard now and has been for some time. Devices talk to each other via high speed point to point serial communication, multiple devices can be using the bus at the same time. It's all a far cry from PCI and AGP.


Your reply is irrelevant to the point.  Standard joystick gameport still uses slow I/O regardless of whether you have PCI/AGP/PCI Express.  Just because you put a new bus in doesn't make all the devices in the system automatically run at that rate.

And no, AGP is not obsolete as far as people out there having AGP.  It may no longer be put into motherboards, but it's present in millions of homes.  Just because A4000 introduced AGA that didn't mean that people stopped writing for OCS/ECS.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #114 on: May 31, 2009, 07:14:38 AM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;457201
p3 600? LOL.  get with the times.  Yea its great going on a long trip in a 1974 VW Beetle but its not as fun and comfortable as my wife's 2008 Chevy Tahoe.



Actually, that never crossed my mind.  Systems nowadays, if you build your own, are VERY affordable.  If you're using a p3 600, then its your own fault, go wallow in your own sorrow.  I have no sympathy for you.

Its not my fault XP is 7 years old.  I upgrade my systems to keep up with the times.  I'm glad XP runs well on my systems at work.   At home, I'm ballin' with a HP laptop runnin openSuSE 11.

Too many people bash XP when its their dinosaur hardware causing the bottleneck.


Most non-technical fields use PCs for word processing, Database, and communications and going from 600Mhz to 1Ghz hardly makes any difference.  I know these hospitals that still are using DOS-based software on the ancient PCs.  They don't see any reason to upgrade if everything is working well especially if they have to BUY new PCs, BUY new versions of software, LEARN new interfaces, etc.  Some areas don't upgrade unless they get FORCED into it.  And I don't see any reason why they should either.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #115 on: May 31, 2009, 07:19:28 AM »
Quote from: persia;457198
And of course a Vax has a punch card reader attached to it, which is arguably more useful that a parallel port, so Vax still rules!


As some people have stated in this thread, if it serves the purpose why bother with the upgrade.  I hope you know many printing places still use parallel-port based printers.  It's usefull and especially for testing custom circuits and stuff.  I know the Willem EPROM programmer I use works perfectly with parallel port on my old laptop.  And my argument isn't that that makes the Amiga superior, but that's another useful thing.
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Offline Fats

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #116 on: May 31, 2009, 09:30:44 AM »
Quote from: orb85750;457137
You wrote:

Take much of the early electronic music work of the late 70s and early 80s.  Much of it far surpasses what is put out with today's modern synthesizers.


Kraftwerk, one of the pioneers of the electronic music, now just uses Windows machine to produce and play their music and the visual effects.
I think some psychology is involved here: people find certain music better because they know it is made with this old equipment, not that they actually can hear the difference.

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Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #117 on: May 31, 2009, 10:15:37 AM »
Quote

Just because A4000 introduced AGA that didn't mean that people stopped writing for OCS/ECS.

Yeah, true... And this refusal to see and embrace evolution is what helped to kill the Amiga... People always refused to accept newer technologies. AGA sucks, GfxCard sucks, AHI sucks, paula can do better,... and in the software side: memory protection is performance killing,...

And that's why people using an OS and a computer outdated in almost every aspect keep thinking it's better than monsters of technology created today...

Yeah, OS of today are heavier than Exec written 24 years ago... But there's no way Amiga could be used for anything productive. You do not reboot because a program crashed anymore. And guess what ? even Apple is doing multitasking nowadays...

If you ask me, the lack of memory protection is an heavier handicap than having extra processes doing nothing (especially when seeing the power/memory we have today).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 10:27:51 AM by warpdesign »
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #118 on: May 31, 2009, 11:22:51 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;457222
Your reply is irrelevant to the point.  Standard joystick gameport still uses slow I/O regardless of whether you have PCI/AGP/PCI Express.  Just because you put a new bus in doesn't make all the devices in the system automatically run at that rate.

There is no fscking "standard joystick gameport" on current PC hardware. Along with the parallel port, it has vanished into the hazy world of yesteryear. Where you live :p  In case you didn't notice, it has all moved to USB in recent years. Now, USB is very slow compared to any internal bus, yes. However that makes absolutely no difference on a system where the communication with the USB device is arbitrated by hardware. My USB device sends a packet, the controller handles it, puts it into memory somewhere and issues an interrupt. Magic. It might not be ideal for your specific polling needs but I think you'll find its ideal for most peripherals.


Quote
And no, AGP is not obsolete as far as people out there having AGP.

There are people out there with 8-bit home computers still. It doesn't mean they aren't obsolete. A given technology essentially becomes obsolete when it ceases to be manufactured or improved upon.AGP was better than PCI for graphics specific applications, PCIe is better than both, is fully generic and has subsequently rendered them obsolete.

I'm fully understanding your argument that the Amiga's native hardware is ideal for your purpose of polling the joystick port at a precise interval and that you couldn't, for whatever reason, duplicate this on a PC. It's quite amusing that you assert this as your premier example of the Amiga is still in some way streets ahead of the PC, yet complained that my particle simulation was "too specific" a metric.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 11:28:59 AM by Karlos »
int p; // A
 

Offline Linde

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #119 from previous page: May 31, 2009, 12:49:35 PM »
Quote from: smerf;457203
Hi,

WOW!!!

What a discussion on which computer is better, this is an Amiga site of course and so by that I declare the Amiga the winner, all you Linux and Windose users are LOSERS just by the fact that you are on an Amiga site.
Greetings to you too! You have to explain your argument a bit closer, because maybe I'm too much of a loser to see how it makes sense logically. I'm not here because I think Amiga is the superior platform, but because I like old computer systems and think the Amiga is particularly interesting. The Amiga sure is an impressive innovation but in a typical home/work environment today it just doesn't cut it for the tasks a user would normally expect a computer to perform.

Quote from: smerf;457203
Lets face it a computer is only as fast as a user can use it. There is no way any of you can type faster than your machine, therefore almost 100% of you are using too much horse power for what you are using it for.
Are you serious?  Then why don't you sit down and decode real time video on paper and just draw it yourself on the screen? Do you decompress zip files by reading the compressed data yourself? Do your drivers print you a message that you have to type in again to pass it to the system? Hell, why not move the laser around over a CD manually if you can do it just as responsively?

A computer is faster at what it does than every potential user, but it doesn't matter because most tasks it performs are tedious and complicated enough for it to be perceived as slow anyway.

Quote from: smerf;457203
Even when you play the most awesome games like fallout 3, crysis, far cry, doom 3, the computers today move much faster than what your senses can see. The only thing you are trying to do is get faster frame rates even though your eyes cannot see them, that is why most TV sets use the 22 fps rate anything above that is quite useless as far as the eye can see.
Judging from your totally misinformed point I take it that you have no knowledge at all about real-time graphics, and if you don't notice the difference between running a game at 60 fps and 22 fps you should probably see a doctor too, because it should be clear to anyone under 80. The reason 22 fps works for movies is because cameras don't really capture discrete moments of time on each frame, but rather pretty much everything between the frame before and the frame after, which introduces a lot of motion blur that conceals the slow frame rate.

Now, doing a similar effect on a computer costs a lot of time, because in the end it means rendering or extrapolating all the significant frames "in-between" too. I guess you could do it by hand pretty fast, though.

And no, TV sets aren't usually locked to 22 fps.

So please tone down the arrogance until you actually know what you're ranting about.