Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?  (Read 4128 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nikodrTopic starter

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2007
  • Posts: 129
    • Show only replies by nikodr
Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« on: May 05, 2009, 01:58:10 PM »
I always think of the performance of scsi vs sata.
On my pc which is an amd64 3200+ i use sata disk and some ide drives too.

However lately i wanted to think wether it would be good to change the sata to scsi.

Reason i am asking this on this amiga forum is because from what i understand amigans always knew more about scsi than any pc user.

I know that i need a good scsi controller and some fast scsi disks.Does scsi outperform sata these days?Back in 2007 i think that scsi was still top in that sense.But what about 2009?

Right now which combo would be the best ? Would it be possible for these scsi dtives to support raid so in someway i can have backups of my data in case there is failure?

Another question that i have is for the amiga i have.
I have set it up to use a cf to ide interface and workbench boots from an installed cf 4gigabyte card.However i have an apollo 68040 card,would it be good if i tried to find an apollo 68040 scsi add on?From what i remember ide hd on a1200 sucks hard when moving small files (i had a complete amiga tosec collection that i wanted to move from one cd rom to a hd drive),and it took SO much time!



 

Offline Piru

  • \' union select name,pwd--
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2002
  • Posts: 6946
    • Show only replies by Piru
    • http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2009, 02:08:50 PM »
If it's performance you're after get one of those fast flash drives. They're way faster than SCSI.

Quote
Would it be possible for these scsi dtives to support raid so in someway i can have backups of my data in case there is failure?

RAID was born with SCSI, so most definitely yes. But you can get this with SATA aswell. Note that the drives themselves don't need to "support RAID", but the controller.

However, RAID only provides redundacy. It is still well possible to lose data even if you use RAID. So, it's no replacement for backups.
 

Offline pyrre

Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2009, 02:18:44 PM »
I think piru is referring to this.

But for the SATA vs SCSI question.
performance gain itself is not enough to defend the costs of SCSI. But security makes it a whole other matter.
Though. running RAID 5/6 on SATA would be more economic and on a workstation you would never tell the difference.

Large servers would probably benefit of SCSI...
but SATA is a very good competitor.
Especially considering the fact that SATA and SAS- SCSI uses almost the same interface. (SATA II drives can be used in SAS backplanes)
Amiga 1200 Tower Os 3.9
BPPC 603e+ 040-25/200, 256MBram, BVIsionPPC, Indivision AGA MK2.
Amiga 2000 (rev 4.0) Os 1.2/1.3
2088 bridgeboard, 2MB ram card, 2091 SCSI.
Amiga 500+ Os 2.1
Derringer 030, 32MBram, Buddha in sidecar, Indivision ECS.
Amiga CD32
Video decoder
 

Offline hektic

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Posts: 68
    • Show only replies by hektic
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2009, 02:22:42 PM »
If your after performace and you can afford it go for Solid State drive(s) as Piru has said.

You can get PCI scsi raid controllers but the cost involved would be huge compared to a SATA setup.

Do you need faster than SATA?.....
I use two 4 port SATA raid cards (with the drives setup using RAID 1 pairs) in my media server in the loft and playback 1080p video downstairs using standard SATA drives without any performace issues.

I picked up the SATA raid cards for about £15 each on the bay and 1TB SATA drives are about £70 these days :-)






 
 

Offline Ilwrath

Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2009, 03:22:00 PM »
Well, disk arrays can be built as fancy as your wallet is deep.

For a home media server or small business server, though, I can't understand why you wouldn't just use a SATA RAID.  With a decent SATA RAID controller, and decent SATA drives, you'll get good enough performance, much easier part availability, and much much MUCH larger and cheaper drives.  

Any decent SATA RAID card will let you configure RAID 0/1/5/10, same as a SCSI RAID card.  And either way you'll easily have enough performance to stream a couple media clients HD content, while still recording one or two HD channels, while your torrents seed away in the background...  

Hell, I do this with a simple on-board SATA RAID controller with two 7200 RPM (32MB cache) Seagate SATA drives in RAID 0.  

And, as stated, if you need small but VERY fast, Solid State Disk (essentially a hardware RAM drive) is the way to go.  It's going to be the fastest access available, and you can put your system partition and/or swap on there, and watch the performance gains.

SAS (Serial Attached SCSI) can be great in the datacenter, but the law of diminishing returns applies.  In other words, you're paying a LOT for that last little bit of speed that you'll probably never notice.  For a home or small business, it's like bringing a bazooka to a knife fight -- It's awfully costly to have that level of overkill, and you have the exciting possibility it could all backfire horribly...

And, of course, repeat after me...  "RAID IS NOT A BACKUP STRATEGY."  RAID will save your data should a single disk fail.  It'll do nothing for your data should you get a virus, logical volume corruption, or encounter a user with privileged access who performs an act of drunken stupidity that includes an incorrect delete command...  In fact, it's a LOT harder to recover from any of these scenarios if you have a RAID configuration.  Plus, ALL of these are more likely than a disk failure, provided you run your disks in a reasonable environment.  Repeat it again.  "RAID IS NOT A BACKUP STRATEGY."
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 9656
    • Show only replies by Speelgoedmannetje
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2009, 03:42:31 PM »
Quote

Piru wrote:
If it's performance you're after get one of those fast flash drives. They're way faster than SCSI.
Also considering offloading the CPU? (as SCSI does)
I mean, quite a while ago I had a 36x (or something) IDE cd burner. A friend of me had a 4x SCSI cd burner, which was waaay faster (and more reliable) than my cd burner.
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline Piru

  • \' union select name,pwd--
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2002
  • Posts: 6946
    • Show only replies by Piru
    • http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 03:46:07 PM »
@Speelgoedmannetje
Quote
Also considering offloading the CPU? (as SCSI does)

You think SATA uses PIO? You seriously need to update yourself ;-)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show only replies by takemehomegrandma
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2009, 04:27:16 PM »
IMHO, today SCSI only makes sense (and fits really good) in servers with heavy load. In normal desktops however, SATA is the best choice, clearly the most bang for the buck. SCSI is very expensive; the controllers, cables, terminators, the drives, everything is ridiculously expensive, and the drives are small (and often rather noisy) in comparison. It's tough to defend the usage of SCSI in desktops. If you want to, you can squeeze a little more performance from the SATA if you set them up in a striped RAID configuration, but then you should pay even more attention to frequent backups of your important data...
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline matthey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2007
  • Posts: 1294
    • Show only replies by matthey
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2009, 04:28:47 PM »
@Speelgoedmannetje

Yea, must have been the unbuffered PIO CPU cycle eating 1200 or 4000 IDE interface. This IS an Amiga Forum after all.
 

Offline Trev

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2003
  • Posts: 1550
  • Country: 00
    • Show only replies by Trev
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2009, 05:04:15 PM »
@nikodr

Both are useful, and the three most popular standards--Ultra-320 SCSI, SATA 3 Gbit/s, and SAS--are used in both small and large-scale deployments.

SAS is quickly replacing U320 in local and direct-attached disk arrays on servers. (Hewlett-Packard tends to be the gold standard in this area, given their market share.) SAS is also quite popular given its common 2.5" form factor, allowing very dense deployments.

Both U320 and SATA are common in SAN environments, with U320 providing fast and reliable but expensive "first tier" storage for databases, virtualization, and other I/O and bandwidth intensive applications and SATA providing large, inexpensive storage arrays for everything else. As costs continue to fall and reliability continues to improve, SATA is closing in here as well.

To decide what you need, you really need to understand your application. Key factors are I/O operations per second (number of simultaneous requests) and bits per second (bandwidth). Single drive SCSI implementations tend to outperform SATA implementations simply because the feature set is more mature. The drives themselves aren't that different.

If you need more performance than a single drive can provide, you start building an array, using drive statistics to estimate overall I/O performance and interface statistics to estimate bandwidth limits. As bandwidth tops out, you typically add additional channels to your array. In most real world implementations, drives are added in units of the interface maximum until the I/O requirements are meant. e.g. An I/O requirement of 20 U320 disks would result in a two-channel array, each channel hosting 14 disks, for a total of 28 disks. In most cases, the array interconnects would be expanded further, with each set of 14 disks split into two 7 disk channels.

Redundancy in your array is factored in after your requirements are in place. In the above four-channel, two controller example, a RAID-5 array would lower the usable storage to 26 disks, which should still meet your requirements. Of course, redundancy impacts performance, so that has to be factored in as well, depending on the type of array implemented. (In a SAN environment, most of this of abstracted away, but it still boils down to basic I/O and bandwidth requirements.)

Regarding SSD, buyer beware. Most consumer-level SSDs are optimized for sequential read benchmarks. Write performance on these devices degrades very quickly, usually to around 2 MB/s--yes, 2 MB/s. Be very careful and do your homework before purchasing any SSD device. AnandTech has a great article on SSD at http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531&p=1. I highly recommend it.

EDIT:

And a recommendation: go with SATA. It's cheap. If a drive fails twice and you have to buy two new ones, you'll still have spent less than you would have on a SCSI solution. For most desktop applications, you won't see a big difference in performance, assuming you use a decent SATA controller. Spend your money on RAM (also cheap these days) instead.

Re: RAID, most new motherboards have on-board array controllers, but the array logic is mostly handled by the device driver and subesequently, the CPU; i.e. it's slower than a dedicated array controller. If you use a dedicated controller, I'd recommend a battery-backed cache. It will prevent data loss in the event of a power failure during a write operation.

If you don't know or don't care about your performance requirements, then a simple two-disk mirror (RAID-1) will protect you in the case of a disk failure. As everyone's pointed out, that's not a backup solution, though.
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show only replies by takemehomegrandma
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2009, 05:20:51 PM »
@Trev

Yeah, I also got the impression he was looking for the best way to build some corporate data warehouse with 20+ disks for his amd64 3200+ desktop...
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline Trev

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2003
  • Posts: 1550
  • Country: 00
    • Show only replies by Trev
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2009, 05:28:38 PM »
20+ disks would be more like a data closet. ;-)
 

Offline alexh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Posts: 3644
    • Show only replies by alexh
    • http://thalion.atari.org
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2009, 05:48:40 PM »
For a home computer you'd be mad to go with anything other than SATA. I use 8-drive SATA RAID6 for my Windows network.

They are cheap, very large capacity (2TB/drive) and have a reasonable bandwidth and MTBF.

SAS  - (Serial SCSI) is too expensive and drives are too small, plus you would need a new expensive PCIe SAS RAID controller as your motherboard is unlikely to support SAS

SSD  - Drives are WAY too expensive and drives are WAY too small. This is an immediate non-starter.

PATA - You cannot buy them any more in the largest sizes, they are now more expensive than SATA.

UWSCSI - Drives are too small, too expensive and like PATA are being phased out. You'd need to buy a PCIe SCSI RAID card and depending on your motherboard it would probably slower than SATA.
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 9656
    • Show only replies by Speelgoedmannetje
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2009, 06:21:13 PM »
Quote

Piru wrote:
@Speelgoedmannetje
Quote
Also considering offloading the CPU? (as SCSI does)

You think SATA uses PIO? You seriously need to update yourself ;-)
I'll shut up now, shan't I?  :oops:
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline Nlandas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2007
  • Posts: 678
    • Show only replies by Nlandas
Re: Scsi vs Sata Which one would be better for me ?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 07:08:13 PM »
Quote

nikodr wrote:
I always think of the performance of scsi vs sata.
On my pc which is an amd64 3200+ i use sata disk and some ide drives too.

However lately i wanted to think wether it would be good to change the sata to scsi.


SCSI in this case now SAS(Serial Attached SCSI) has always outperformed IDE/SATA. However, today in practical application on a single user multitasking OS - SATA more than meets the needs. SAS is mostly used now in server based applications to provide faster data access in the multiple user environment.

If money is an object then just use SATA, it will work just fine for you. It's a lot faster than the old IDE standards.

Now on a classic Amiga - SCSI is the best option simply because when they were built SCSI was the superior drive technology hands down. IDE will do the trick but I've run Amigas with UW SCSI versus the standard IDE and there was a huge difference. However, good luck finding controllers and compatible drives.

-Nyle
I think, Therefore - Amiga....