(RFD) Amiga.org's future

[whoosh777]

Wayne wrote:
c'mon guys, please.  Let's stay on topic?

I'm really getting torn here between investing dozens of hours to learn Drupal, or the exciting prospect of "rolling our own" by way of simply writing a new site up around the existing data.

The problem is, drupal is far advanced and could be ready to go in a couple of weeks.  Writing one specifically for Amiga.org sounds exciting but could potentially take months, if not years to get to where the current system is now.

Wayne

well the answer is probably to go both ways,

learn an existing product right now and then when

that is up and running attempt to write your own forum

code as a background project.


as you point out the thing is to achieve data compatiblity,
a bit like using a different email client:

same emails, different email interpreter



learning ANY existing system will be guaranteed to

succeed whereas writing your own system will usually

take longer than you anticipate.


and as you point out, learning an existing product

is "dozens" of hours, whereas rolling your own forum

will be months.




but creating your own code in the long term is always

preferable and if done correctly evades

gratuitous dependency problems.

eg you could try writing your own forum

with php in a php-portable way: where you can port the

php code to future forms of php.


php is syntactically IDENTICAL to C, so portable php

code is an IDENTICAL problem to writing portable C code.


with php things like text boxes are achieved AUTOMAGICALLY by simply delegating the problem to HTML.

if you visit my website, the email box at the top

and the picture display options at the top are all

done in php. You can try sending me an email from

the email box to see php in action. or try selecting

different picture display options.



the URL is:

www.whoosh777.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk



php is server side so AmigaOS doesnt need any compatibility,

just ensure that the output html is compatible with

the AmigaOS browsers.


the server simply interprets the php and outputs

ascii which is the webpage the visiting browser

sees.


when I reply here, the webpage is

....../reply.php?forum=22&post_id=580111&...

the php script is reply.php

and the args are forum post_id ....

arg "forum" has value "22"
arg "post_id" has value "580111"
etc

the arg values are separated by &'s

because text input is usually large, they use
a more efficient way to send the args

after replying the URL is:
..../viewtopic.php?topic_id=50302&post_id=580225&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=22#forumpost580225

that is also a php script viewtopic.php

and the args are topic_id post_id order viewmode pid
forum

eg arg "viewmode" has value "flat"
and arg "order" has value 0

php is truly cool, and the only scripting language
to consider IMHO, eg this forum is ultimately php

the visitor CANNOT view the php script which is
reply.php or viewtopic.php
all they see is the html output when the server
executes reply.php

one other thing, dont trust anyone who says
one or another system has bugs as that is likely
to be FUD.

ask them to give the URL for the alleged bugs
before you believe such.

I can show you php I have done which is the
above URL.

the brilliant thing about php is you can synthesize
web content on the fly, whether it be an html page
or a jpeg or anything.

that is why most forums and intelligent web pages
are done with php

[guest3110]

Wayne, I may be speaking of something still in its infancy, premature, or 'not there yet', BUT...Have you investigated using Carl Sassenrath's REBOL as a basis for all of the forums and its features?

Over on Carl's blog, not too long ago, they were talking about REBOL-based forums (I think the particular one was in France). Someone had written it all in REBOL.

If it's just not there yet, then it might be far more trouble than it's worth--what with the necessity of graphics creations and other unseen-by-user mechanics. But if not, it might be interesting.

I think this is the post I saw:
http://www.rebol.com/article/0384.html

 :shrug:  :-D

@eyeam,

I thought about REBOL long ago, and even picked it up to try, but frankly it's like the difference between Mac and a PC.  I find a Mac wildly intuitive.  Others don't.  

In regards to REBOL, it's one of those "I don't" moments.  PHP on the other hand, comes natural to me and it's something I've never had to think about much after the few starting baby steps.

Is PHP perfect?  Absolutely not, but it does strike the best possible language for something that can't move forward like the Amiga and is still rabidly possible.

Just wish I could win the lottery to hire someone to do all this for me really.  With realjob[tm] and time for little else, I'm just at a loss as to whether I'll even have time to do a Drupal thing or not.

Wayne

[whoosh777]

EyeAm wrote:
Wayne, I may be speaking of something still in its infancy, premature, or 'not there yet', BUT...Have you investigated using Carl Sassenrath's REBOL as a basis for all of the forums and its features?

Over on Carl's blog, not too long ago, they were talking about REBOL-based forums (I think the particular one was in France). Someone had written it all in REBOL.

If it's just not there yet, then it might be far more trouble than it's worth--what with the necessity of graphics creations and other unseen-by-user mechanics. But if not, it might be interesting.

I think this is the post I saw:
http://www.rebol.com/article/0384.html

 :shrug:  :-D

Sassenrath created the basis of AmigaOS,
namely exec. brilliant at OS's, yes,
he is one of my main influences, but just
on OS's not on languages.


but looking at that forum you could create something
vastly better with even just a few lines of php

the guys who wrote that forum havent heard of
recursive rectangles, they also dont seem to
know about the concept of borders. Their
text is right up against the margin.

the reason php is so good is that it is syntactically
NOT a script language but is C. it has the
syntactic power of C, FURTHERMORE
THERE IS NO LEARNING CURVE
if you know C you AUTOMAGICALLY know php
with REBOL you will have to learn
an entirely new language which is a risk.

whereas REBOL looks like a script language,
and the proof of the pudding is to look at this
forum and look at that forum.

C so far is the only proven language for creating
really complicated things. IMHO it would be
an ujustified risk to go for REBOL

(I am developing my own language to challenge C on this,
and so far am succeeding,
but right now C is THE ONLY proven language,
even C++ isnt proven)

Wayne would be better off writing his own php forum code
from scratch.


to be brutally frank you could do something a lot
better with a SMALLER php script instead
of depending on rebol

cut to the chase

[guest3110]

@Wayne
So you'll be going with the latest PHP, I guess.


@whoosh777:
I knew most of that. I wasn't necessarily advocating REBOL outside of the fact Carl created Amiga OS and, only then, "IF" REBOL would be sufficient. I think I put enough "IFs" in my post about it. :-)


@both: I tried REBOL once, myself, and did not find it intuitive; and wondered where the genius being the Amiga OS was (I know, probably blasphemy--but still the truth). I still somewhat anticipate REBOL 3, to see if things change--and to see what it really is (scripting language, messaging language, CGI-like, Java-like, etc.), because I'm not convinced the creators of it really even know what it is or can adequately describe it.

In my original post in this thread, I did suggest and advocate a path--the best of the latest which is most plentiful. Probably the route taken, I'd guess, from Wayne's latest comment about PHP.

(False flame mode)
Those who can't handle risk should probably stick with the safest routes, huh?  :-D
(/False flame mode)

Seriously, it's probably better to go with the latest--and that with which most of the visitors to Amiga.org would have the least trouble.

[guest3110]

Here's a different one--more or less out of the box, free, open source...

http://www.eblah.com/

@eyeam,

Thinking of "just forum based", the best and easiest thing for me to do by far is to just spend $180 to buy VBulletin (the BEST forum software out there, bar none) which imports Xoops by default, then put up a redirect to the new forums as I've done with both salemspectator and whyzzat.

This is a great idea (save for the cost) because all the usernames/passwords, posts, forums, etc would be instantly saved and usable.  It's also more than likely 99% Amiga compatible output (very little flashy stuff).

VBulletin also has a mod which would allow me to write news, image gallery, and other pages separately as time allowed.  Since we would never "mod" VBulletin itself, upgrades would constantly be made available (90% chance we would never be stranded again) and still be able to make Amiga.org in whatever direction we needed it to go.

The only downside is that it would literally be "forums only" until I (or maybe we -- given volunteers) could get the rest written.  

Converting to VBulletin, writing a theme, and getting it back online really only takes about a day or two at the most.  I can peacefully say that if we suddenly wake up one morning and find ourselves broken, that's the way I'd go.  

At least once converted to VBulletin, converting to anything else should be a breeze should we decide to later.

Wayne

[the_leander]

whoosh777 wrote:

I dont remember as I wasnt there!

maybe you are inventing the event!

The great reboot was the moment that Amiga.org went from PHPNuke to Xoops. It was done after multiple hack attacks, indeed, it was thanks to those hacks that I first learned of Goatse!

whoosh777 wrote:
Your argument then is not about compatibility but
about security?

It is both, one cannot maintain backwards compatability indefinately. At some point you have to move with the times.

whoosh777 wrote:
the only alternative options to what has been said
then are eg to port Firefox to 68k-AmigaOS

Or, you know, use a computer that's standards compliant online and keep the Amiga for things it was actually good at.

or I dont know if CSS can be done via an IBrowse plugin
which would then need to be coded or ported.

whoosh777 wrote:
yes:

typical x86 forum thread:

http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=10108

which has more impressive graphics?

this thread or that thread,
and you can select out any other thread from
that forum

Good lord. That is the sum total of your argument?

I won't even dignify that.

whoosh777 wrote:
I think Amiga users often are fighting an imaginary
enemy, they imagine that Windows users are
in some sort of computer paradise.

in fact they are in a computer hell!

And they imagine that Microsoft are out to
get all competitor systems,

whoosh777 wrote:


AHA, FALSE ARGUMENT,

because you can have an unlimited number of boot partitions
with a Terabyte on AmigaOS.

And yours is any less false? Seriously, if the sum total of your basis for keeping this site in some form of backwater is "unlimited boot partitions" then I'm sorry but you fail.

NOPE, disinformation,

I tried just now on XP with Firefox, Internet Explorer AND Qedit,

and in all 3 cases Alt-Gr E causes the Edit menu to open,
doesnt cause any char to appear!

Tried on Vista, Xandros, Elive and Zeta 1.2. (with the default en-uk keymap out of win2k pro) ALL OF THEM produce é.

Come back when you get a clue, or an unstuffed computer.

whoosh777 wrote:


well as you know all the answers maybe you should
run the site!

No interest. As I stated, most people would have walked away from this sometimes psychotic little userbase for the crap that has been thrown his way.

whoosh777 wrote:
You say its expensive but I bet you dont know!

Oooh, you want to play do you?

Ok... Run your own server. Initial outlay for a decent server... Lets say a nice little 2 way x86 system, and to save costs a linux distro. You're still looking at around £1000 including spares, ups etc.

Then the line... Even for 2Mbit SDSL you're looking at £100 a month (Eclipse business broadband) and I seriously doubt that would be even close to the needs of this site during peek hours.

Oh and of course, this assumes you live in an area where you could get a decent line in.

If you go with your own server plugged into a datacentre you are then stuck where you are now - at the mercy of the inevitable march of the upgrades.

whoosh777 wrote:
you could only know for sure if you have set up your
own server, please tell what the URL is for your
own server!

Wrong. I could only know if I actually researched it myself. I don't have to BUY it to know the costs involved!

whoosh777 wrote:
BTW using Windows FUD wont work on me as I have
3 PCs all with XP, one I built myself,

and I have installed 32 and 64 bit Linuxes,
Fedora Core and Ubuntu, and built a brand new
tower system with XP SP3 a few weeks ago for
some relatives.

I used to build PCs for a living, most recently I helped setup a winXP system with SP3 for Gadgetmaster by way of a thankyou for a nice meal, but building them on my own I was still installing XP mostly (a few win2k boxen as well). My knowledge includes Windows (1.0 - Vista), Solaris (on sparc), linux (32 and 64bit) Freebsd, openbsd, netbsd, BeOS, Zeta.

And by knowledge, I mean at least 2 years day to day usage of all of those OS's in either a desktop or server environment (with the exception of Vista, which I've had access to only for the last 12 months).

Currently I run Xandros, Elive, Zeta and Vista.

whoosh777 wrote:
thus if you make any assertions I will test them out
directly, your tricks may work on others

I tend to take the view that people generally judge others on the basis of how they themselves behave.

[Trev]

@Wayne

the best and easiest thing for me to do by far is to just spend $180 to buy VBulletin

I'm pretty sure I see a surplus on the Donat-o-Meter Stats each month....

[guest3110]

That seems like a good idea, Wayne.  :eureka:

I think my oldest brother once ran VBulletin, and liked it a lot. I didn't realize it was that inexpensive. Not a bad price. Kitty needs food!  :lol:

[buzz]

Drupal would do the job as would some other CMS/portal systems. I would move with the times and go for modern standards compliant xhtml/css.

I'm not sure you "need" to pay for a forum. There are plenty of decent enough free ones. However if you prefer then it is your choice.

I would think the easiest option would be to move to a newer xoops though surely ?

[the_leander]

buzz wrote:
Drupal would do the job as would some other CMS/portal systems. I would move with the times and go for modern standards compliant xhtml/css.

I'm not sure you "need" to pay for a forum. There are plenty of decent enough free ones. However if you prefer then it is your choice.

I would think the easiest option would be to move to a newer xoops though surely ?

I think (and Wayne, feel free to correct me on this) that xoops in terms of maintainance and configuration is, at least as Wayne has described it to me, to be a royal pain to operate. It was on that basis that I avoided it when I began my (abortive) work on DTN. I went with e107 instead and found it to be an impressive performer that was very easy to work with, the built in forum was especially good. I looked at Drupal and others but tbh I didn't much like them for various reasons.

[buzz]

e107 ? well. if xoops is worse than that i can't even imagine.

e107 is probably the worst collection of php code I have ever seen. "shortcode", mixed indentation and styles in files, almost no api documentation, poor attempts at class implementation (it is a real mix of part classes part repeated copy and paste code, for example each php handles outputting the header etc), bad database design (missing indexes, storing usernames and IDs in single field as comma separated data and using FLOOR in sql joins!) aah well i could go on. e107. AVOID.

(drupal is in a completely different league - don't go from initial visual "appearance").

[the_leander]

buzz wrote:

(drupal is in a completely different league - don't go from initial visual "appearance").

At the time I needed something that offered a decent forum base with the minimum amount of setup time. Drupal might have offered something more, but the amount of work I would have had to put in to get there was far more then I was willing or able to spend.

I remember one of Waynes key critisms was that configuration was, rather then a single file, a huge collection of files dotted randomly about the place, making building a custom site a swine.

[DavidF215]

Tough decision. In the related Poll, I would say migrate and protect what data currently exists even if that means implementing technology that the current AmigaOS software cannot correctly handle.

The forums are most popular, I presume, so choose a new CMS platform that would be easiest in data migration from Xoops to it.

It is unfortunate that the site and AmigaOS software will not be compatible, but it seems that either the site dies or an upgrade is needed. If the Site cannot be ported to another Hosting provider with the currently utilized PHP version, then make the upgrade.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[Claw22000]

I know I'm too new to make any real suggestions but...

I would like to see the huge collection of knowledge here saved.  Even if you need to upgrade the site please find a way to keep all of the collected information on how things got done available.  Many things would have never happened for me if this site didn't exist and I'm very thankful for all that it has done.  I only hope that it will be available to help more Amigians.