MiniMig with AGA

[ferrellsl]

@little

And again,  I say no new hardware is being created at all by modifiying an FPGA core.  FPGA cores are software VHDL code.  There is absolutely NO hardware being created when someone modifies a core.  Please do some more study about FPGAs before you start spreading misinformation.  Creating new hardware would be adding additional ICs, capacitors, resistors, etc.  That does not happen when someone modifies a softcore.  That's why it's called a "soft" core.

No, you are confusing the goals of AROS 68K and classic Amiga.  The goal of AROS 68K is to run classic Amiga software completely unmodified.  The target program will look and operate identically on an Amiga that's running AROS 68K or OS3.X.  In fact, it will be running on identical hardware. Instead of OS 3.X on your Amiga, you simply choose to run Aros 68K instead.  Or if you have an FPGA based Amiga, you can do the same there as well.  Run AROS, or run OS3.X or less.  The software application is still using Amiga hardware, but you can opt for an FPGA Amiga as well.

And I haven't seen nor heard of anyone here asking a programmer to make a 24-bit game for a classic Amiga.....No one here will disagree with you that asking such a thing is madness.  Gunnar is actually making one for the Natami though, now that you mention it.

And who is developing ANY 24-bit screen mode games for classic Amigas anyway? (Answer:  Nobody)  And why would they?  There's simply no market for it, and the CPU horsepower for such a game on a classic Amiga doesn't exist.  So your argument makes no sense.  So the FPGA devs are supposed to keep their next generation Amiga hardware and softcores stunted/handicapped for software that doesn't even exist?  The entire point of next generation hardware is to move forward with greater capabilities while retaining the ability to run older classic software if you choose to do so.

[little]

@little

And again,  I say no new hardware is being created at all by modifiying an FPGA core.  FPGA cores are software VHDL code.  There is absolutely NO hardware being created when someone modifies a core.  Please do some more study about FPGAs before you start spreading misinformation.  Creating new hardware would be adding additional ICs, capacitors, resistors, etc.  That does not happen when someone modifies a softcore.  That's why it's called a "soft" core.

You don't know how thankful I am for clarifying that for me, for a moment I thought this was a piece of hardware.

No, you are confusing the goals of AROS 68K and classic Amiga.  The goal of AROS 68K is to run classic Amiga software completely unmodified.  The target program will look and operate identically on an Amiga that's running AROS 68K or OS3.X.  In fact, it will be running on identical hardware. Instead of OS 3.X on your Amiga, you simply choose to run Aros 68K instead.  Or if you have an FPGA based Amiga, you can do the same there as well.  Run AROS, or run OS3.X or less.  The software application is still using Amiga hardware, but you can opt for an FPGA Amiga as well.

You heard it first, AROS 68k will not have new capabilities, nor fix any bugs/incompatibilities, don't you feel reassured now?

And I haven't seen nor heard of anyone here asking a programmer to make a 24-bit game for a hardware platform with a user base below a thousand.....No one here with disagree with you that asking such a thing is madness.

So what would be the point then of improving AGA at all if no one is going to benefit from the extra features? You have already said that AROS will not support the AGA and I can assure you that AmigaOS 3.1 (even 3.9) cannot support said hardware.

And who is developing ANY 24-bit screen mode games for classic Amigas anyway? (Answer:  Nobody)  And why would they?  There's simply no market for it, and the CPU horsepower for such a game on a classic Amiga doesn't exist.

It is called freeware and it existed even when my amiga 1200 was brand new

So your argument makes no sense.  So the FPGA devs are supposed to keep their next generation Amiga hardware and softcores stunted/handicapped for software that doesn't even exist?  The entire point of next generation hardware is to move forward with greater capabilities while retaining the ability to run older classic software if you choose to do so.

I salute you, I haven't met someone with tea and no tea at the same time in quite a while.

[xyzzy]

There are lots of ways AGA can be improved. The most obvious one is eliminating the "SuperHiRes 8-bitplane" DMA slowdown, others include speeding up blitter operations. Hopefully 1280x512 would become totally useable.

[ferrellsl]

@little

As I said earlier, please educate yourself further as to the difference between hardware and software.  A "softcore" is software code loaded into a FPGA.  It's called "soft" for a reason.  The FPGA discussed in the context of this thread IS the hardware.  It IS the new computer in its entirety, minus the softcore, as far as Natami and Minimig go anyway.  Adding new screen modes to an Amiga softcore on a Minimig or Natami does not involve adding ANY new hardware components at all, no ICs, no resistors, no boards, etc....your link to an Atari hardware page has nothing to do with anything here.  That is simply a new hardware video card made to be inserted into an existing Atari.  It just happens to use an FPGA chip to emulate the ICs and other components normally found on mass produced video cards.  Developers and hobbyists use FPGA chips for a variety of reasons.  The Natami developers chose an FPGA because obtaining real Motorola 68060 chips was too expensive and impractical.  It also gives them the ability to create "new" or enhanced CPUs in software...as well as new video and audio capabilities without having to constantly design and redesign new hardware whenever a change or extension is made.

Where have I said that AROS 68K won't support AGA?  It'll support AGA, SuperAGA and other modes/extensions as they are developed.

Huh??  AROS 68K will have all kinds of enhancements available to it as long as you run it on next generation hardware such as a Natami, Minimig or FPGAArcade board.  It also will run just fine on a classic Amiga.

Neat trick.  Post us a video of you running a 24-bit color freeware game on your classic Amiga.  I'm sure the resolution is crappy and the frame-rate abysmal. I can take my old software or your freeware game and it'll run better on the next gen FPGA based systems. That's the point of next generation hardware.  Even better trick, show us a list of developers who are currently writing 24-bit color games for classic Amigas.

[ChaosLord]

Adding new screen modes to an Amiga softcore on a Minimig or Natami does not involve adding ANY new hardware components at all, no ICs, no resistors, no boards, etc....

Wrong.  Minimig has a suxxy 12-bit DAC and is totally incapable of displaying AGA gfx modes.  So a minimig would need a new 24-bit DAC to support AGA modes.  Natami already has the correct DAC.  Have a nice day

[ChaosLord]

And who is developing ANY 24-bit screen mode games for classic Amigas anyway? (Answer:  Nobody)

So I am a nobody if I develop a 24-bit screen mode game for Classic Amigas?  Thanks.  You really know to make Amiga devs feel loved.

[freqmax]

One can still make AGA with 12-bit suxxy D/A. The difference is slightly worse picture.

The real show stopper is the number of configurable gates (400k vs 1200k).

[ChaosLord]

One can still make AGA with 12-bit suxxy D/A. The difference is slightly worse picture.

The difference is dramatically, tremendously worse.

[freqmax]

It's important that the D/A is able to change the RGB color channels faster than the next pixel needs to show up. Other than that the difference is in the dithering levels available and S/N ratio.

A resistor D/A ought to have no problem with response time, but have worse S/N ratio than a chip D/A.

Btw, I heard some weird people think that it's possible to implement a whole Amiga in a little fpga chip. How ridiculus

[little]

The real show stopper is the number of configurable gates (400k vs 1200k).

IMO they should already go with the 1600k FPGA.

[freqmax]

There's another catch there.. the tool to use it cost like 3000 USD/year.

[ferrellsl]

@chaoslord

OK, so I was mistaken about the Minimig, but I'm 100% correct about the Natami and other FPGA based solutions.  Adding new screenmodes and other capabilities is a matter of updating the softcore, no hardware mods necessary.  That's exactly how Yaqube was able to increase the maximum available chipram on a Minimig from 2 MB to around 50.

As for my remarks about the lack of game development for classic Amigas, I don't care if classic game developers feel loved or not.  (Strike out that last sentence.  I DO think I love you!!) My point is that there's almost zero demand for classic games and almost zero amount of accompanying classic development.  No development that anyone could make a living from anyway.  If you still develop classic software for little or no money, I laud your efforts.  You are to be commended.  It's really too bad.  I hope that next gen hardware such as the Natami and FPGAArcade will spur development a little, but I have to be realistic.  The Amiga has long since passed the point of no return from being a hobby OS.  And it's great to relive the Amiga's glory years whether I use WinUAE, a real classic or an FPGA based system.  I don't think any other computer users from our era can even relate, except maybe the Atari fans.....maybe they can relate just a little bit even if their hardware was/is inferior to the Amiga!  LOL

[JimS]

THIS Cray-1 --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-1

This thing looks like it came out of TRON!! WOW!!
I'll be careful not to work with it while it has some digitaliser attached, I don't like hi-speed motorcycles...  
I can't wait to put my hands on a thing like this, running on my room in FPGA!

Actually, Tron came out of it. ;-)

[little]

There's another catch there.. the tool to use it cost like 3000 USD/year.

If I understand correctly said tool is required for the virtex and spartan 6. AFAIK the biggest spartan 3e model has 1600k (and not 1200k) gates and last time I checked the price was not too high (of course YMMV).

[smerf]

Holy crap, that's impressive! I love the way you just increased the ChipRAM so that gigantic image would load. Wow!

Hi,

@cammy,

Yes that is impressive, and with a few more instructions maybe we can have the new expensive minimig board roll over and play dead. Yes I think that the minimig board that duplicates the A500 was a good school project but I saw something the other day walking through a flea market, an Amiga 500 game console that came with 50 Amiga games all embedded in a joystick. It ran off of a couple of double A batts and you could carry it around take it over your friends house and play the 50 Amiga games on it, you could even order a flash card with another 50 games for $49.95.

Now that was impressive.

smerf

[smerf]

There are lots of ways AGA can be improved. The most obvious one is eliminating the "SuperHiRes 8-bitplane" DMA slowdown, others include speeding up blitter operations. Hopefully 1280x512 would become totally useable.

Hi,

Ever try a modern day graphics card with Amiga Forever.

Talk about improvement with no slowdown and you don't even have to eliminate the superhires 8 bitplane.

Oh wow: 1280 by 512 usable, good grief what will they think of next for the next new hardware for the Amiga.

Amiga Forever runs at 1280 x 1020 with no problems. Oh no I am really going to make you all angry at me I should be thinking slow expensive buggy new hardware for our favorite machine when Cloanto's new 2010 package runs everything great when you have a newer PC machine. Not a 386 or 486 you know something modern. We are up to 6 cores, and single cores that run 200 times faster than a 68060 miggy. I know lets step it up to a 1.86 ghz ppc chip. (10 year old tech) wow super frog will really fly then.

smerf