Amigakit and their customer service...

[Painkiller]

@Amigakit
Did any of the modified "original" Amiga drives have custom shell modifications.

No.

If it was mentioned that these are modified PC drives would I have directly know that they wont directly fit for my purpose.

Yes.

Could it have been an original drive that wouldn't fit my purpose.

Yes. That would have been my bad.

Do I think it is misleading to sell these as just Amiga parts, yes because they aren't the same as the original drives be it that some of the original drives were made from PC drives, but all with factory parts.

[Andeda]

@painkiller

Does this drive work in a A500? if it does i could buy one of them from you.

[Painkiller]

It doesn't work in A500. I have figered out a use for it already. All is fine and tandy now oh well apart from the description of the drive over at Amigakit, but I have done what I can.

It is up them now, but I gues they will leave as it is. Hopefully no one else will be misguided by their description.

[ffastback]

Painkiller wrote:
Did any of the modified "original" Amiga drives have custom shell modifications.

No.

So what?  He never claimed they were original.

If it was mentioned that these are modified PC drives would I have directly know that they wont directly fit for my purpose.

Yes.

Actually no.  Since you yourself admit not all original drives fit (something you figured out later).  That means it was (without asking) pot luck if they would happen to match the exact dimensions of the kind of original Amiga drives that did fit in your custom case.  They may just happen to match the dimensions of a original Amiga drive that does not fit your custom case, or they may be different than anything else.  Since he never said they were OEM or NOS so long as they fit properly in an A600 or A1200 case they have done their job.

Could it have been an original drive that wouldn't fit my purpose.

Yes. That would have been my bad.

It could have ended up being a modified PC drive that would have fit your purpose too.  Your response here is immaterial.  He never said they were original drives.

Do I think it is misleading to sell these as just Amiga parts, yes because they aren't the same as the original drives be it that some of the original drives were made from PC drives, but all with factory parts.

So even though he never said they were OEM, or original, or NOS.  You want him to list "made in a factory with the following equipment xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx, dremel".  

[Painkiller]

So what? He never claimed they were original.

They never claimed they weren't. They know for a fact that these are modified PC drives they should tell it IMHO

Actually no. Since you yourself admit not all original drives fit (something you figured out later). That means it was (without asking) pot luck if they would happen to match the exact dimensions of the kind of original Amiga drives that did fit in your custom case. They may just happen to match the dimensions of a original Amiga drive that does not fit your custom case, or they may be different than anything else. Since he never said they were OEM or NOS so long as they fit properly in an A600 or A1200 case they have done their job.

There isn't a PC drive that wouldn't require further modification to fit this case. So I would have known.

It could have ended up being a modified PC drive that would have fit your purpose too. Thats immaterial. He never said they were original drives.

No it couldn't have atleast I don't know any PC drive that would have the metal part of the eject button positioned same as it was in the truly original Amiga drive. Don't remember if it was manufactured by Panasonic or someone else. They had PC version of these drives but the metal part of the eject button was different from the Amiga one.

So even though he never said they were OEM, or original, or NOS. You want him to list "made in a factory with the following equipment xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx,xxx, dremel".

There was no dremel cut shells for Amiga drives that were modified from PC ones. They had pressed metal parts and moulted plastic parts.

[ffastback]

Painkiller wrote:

They never claimed they weren't.

You aren't a little kid in a schoolyard anymore (at least I think).  Start thinking and acting like an adult.  You want every vendor on this earth to list everything a product isn't?  Warning this hammer is not a screwdriver!  Warning this car is not a pickup truck!  Warning, this new stretch limo started off as a regular car at one point!  Warning, this Saleen Mustang started off as a regular Mustang at one point!

 They know for a fact that these are modified PC drives they should tell it IMHO

They are Amiga drives just like they say.  If you plugged them into a PC they would not work right.  Their manufacturing process is slightly different than some others that came before it to become a Amiga drive.  So what?

There isn't a PC drive that wouldn't require further modification to fit this case. So I would have known.

When you ordered it you made the bad assumption that any drive that can fit in a A1200 case can fit in your custom tower case.  So you are making a bold unsubstaniated statement there.  And you got sold an Amiga drive.  The fact that at one point during its manufacture it could possibly have been used as a PC drive if someone so chose is immaterial.

No it couldn't have atleast I don't know any PC drive that would have the metal part of the eject button positioned same as it was in the truly original Amiga drive.

All the more reason you should have asked some questions.

There was no dremel cut shells for Amiga drives that were modified from PC ones. They had pressed metal parts and moulted plastic parts.

So what?  So friggin what?  Really?  So what?

[Painkiller]

You aren't a little kid in a schoolyard anymore (at least I think). Start thinking and acting like an adult.

See we are all human.

You want every vendor on this earth to list everything a product isn't?

No, I want them to list for what it is.

When you ordered it you made the bad assumption that any drive that can fit in a A1200 case can fit in your custom tower case. So you are making a bold unsubstaniated statement there. And you got sold an Amiga drive. The fact that at one point during its manufacture it could possibly have been used as a PC drive if someone so chose is immaterial.

When I ordered I didn't remember that not all A1200/A600 drives were the same. I taught this was exactly like the one I had in the tower before as it wasn't mentioned that this drive is a modified PC drive made to work in Amiga

All the more reason you should have asked some questions.

Didn't come to my mind at the point that someone would sell a modified PC drive and not mention about it.

So what? So friggin what? Really? So what?

Build quality? Already had troubles getting one of the drives out from the 3.5" bay as one off the sides on the upper shell had bend to a wrong position during this modification process and I didn't notice it.

[ffastback]

Didn't come to my mind at the point that someone would sell a modified PC drive and not mention about it.

I want you to try to look at this from Amigakit's perspective for a second.  Here is a guy that knows a lot about Amiga.  He knows there were 11 different OEM drive mechanisms at various times in Amiga history for these models.  Some were purpose built as Amiga only drives through the whole manufacturing process.  Some were not and equated to being PC drives at some point during the manufacturing process.

From his informed perspective he is not selling anything different at all.  And from his perspective he is trying to be informative to his customers upfront by saying the drive mechanisms may vary.  Maybe the next batch won't have the dremel cut for instance for all we know.

You are pissing on the reputation of someone who is generally highly regarded by the community and seemed to be trying to do the right thing, both in his description and in his willingness to take the drives back even though its not in his return policy that he needs to.  You are not being reasonable.  Worse, there is every indication he would have answered any and all questions you might have posed honestly, if you had bothered to take the time.

You are buying parts in what is almost 2009 for a 1992 machine.  Amigakit's average customer is not so naive and they are not a big company like Walmart to just absorb any costs just to make you 100 percent happy even though you are in the wrong.

When I ordered I didn't remember that not all A1200/A600 drives were the same.

Your problem, not theirs, and something they would have been happy to educate you on had you asked them it seems.

Build quality? Already had troubles getting one of the drives out from the 3.5" bay as one off the sides on the upper shell had bend to a wrong position during this modification process and I didn't notice it.

Thank the heavens.  Maybe there is a possibility that you will see this as a separate issue.  You think that the build quality is bad due to the dremel work thats fine and a fair opinion to hold.  And a fair one to complain about.  So long as you don't mask it like you have been as something else.  But listing that these drives at one point were PC compatibles would not tell you the build quality.  This issue has nothing to do with how they list the product on the website.  Its not a misrepresentation issue.  A fair thing for you to do would have been to complain to Amigakit on the quality issue and have seen what they had to say about that first, just between the two of you.  And worst case if they told you to piss off (or simply left if unresolved to your satisfaction), then you could have posted a friendly heads up to all on the board that you don't think the build quality of the current drives they sell is so great as a heads up.  Thats a entirely different thing then what you did.

[PaSha]

Let's toss some fuel on the fire

amigakit wrote:
Both Commodore and Escom used 'PC' modified drives (either through jumpering or hard wiring).  We have 11 different models and variations of drives from these companies that were supplied in Amigas over the years.

Commodore used off the shelf DD drives. These drives could be jumpered to work with Amigas and PC's. (so no, these were not "PC specific" drives).
Commodore probably ordered enough drives to have them delivered pre-jumpered for Amiga (as 'DS0' with 'Ready' and 'Diskchange' in the right place etc).

In the 90's, most floppy drive manufacturers began cutting costs by replacing the jumpers with surface mounted links, so that you'll have to do some soldering and/or messing around with wires in order to make them work in an amiga.

Amigakit's drives are probably modified HD drives?

We list them with the words "Brand new and guaranteed. Drive mechanism may vary." and that is accurate.

The descrition as of this moment:

Amiga internal 3.5" floppy disk drive for the Amiga A1200 or A600.

Brand new and guaranteed. Drive mechanism may vary.

This description, specifically that it says 'Amiga internal drive' leads me to believe that this is in fact an Amiga branded drive. (The difference between 'brand new' and 'NOS' aren't necessarily easy to understand for non-native english speakers).
So if I'm sitting there, considering whether or not to bother hacking a PC drive or buy one of these, I'd buy one "just to get the clean original look and feel".

At the very least, he should lose the word 'Amiga' and just put 'internal 3.5" floppy disk drive for the Amiga A1200 or A600'.
Preferably, also mention that this is a modified HD mechanism (but I assume, tested to work with both NDOS and normal Amiga disks. I know some Escom drives used to have problems with NDOS).

That's my opinion anyway

[ffastback]

This description, specifically that it says 'Amiga internal drive' leads me to believe that this is in fact an Amiga branded drive.(The difference between 'brand new' and 'NOS' aren't necessarily easy to understand for non-native english speakers).

If you are a non-native English speaker all the more reason to ask questions to clarify before ordering.  Shall Amigkit have to go to the expense to get their website translated and certified as translated correctly into every language on earth?  Is there some hallucinogen that has been released into the air in northern Europe recently?  Because starting to go down that path of thinking is pretty crazy.

Between "drive mechanisms may vary" and it being almost 2009 it certainly should be assumed these are not drives that Commodore or Escom manufactured directly.  Amiga at the time was a brand.  And these drives are for that brand, like it says on their page.

[broken]

I think Amigakit should just reword that description to add:

"Drive mechanism may not be compatible with aftermarket tower conversion kits. Please contact us first to inquire about compatible drives."


Done deal.

That saves everyone a hella lot of headaches about what these are intended for.

[ffastback]

broken wrote:
I think Amigakit should just reword that description to add:

"Drive mechanism may not be compatible with aftermarket tower conversion kits. Please contact us first to inquire about compatible drives."


Done deal.

That saves everyone a hella lot of headaches about what these are intended for.

They certainly can and it might be nice for them to do I agree.  But its certainly far from necessary at the same time.

[dannyp1]

Lorraine says:

"This still doesn't mean Matt couldn't put a little note in bold/8point/times at the very bottom of the ad simply saying "this is a modified PC drive", unless he's worried it'll somehow put people off buying it, but then that's dishonesty in itself."

Thank you Lorraine.  That is kinda what I was getting at.  Not the size of someones rear end.  I realize that it's not practical to list everything the drive fits but a lttle note like you suggest would help.  You can run across a road without looking one hundred times and not get hit.  When you get hit on the 101st time you run across does mean that you were right to do it the first hundred times.

[ffastback]

dannyp1 wrote:

You can run across a road without looking one hundred times and not get hit.  When you get hit on the 101st time you run across does mean that you were right to do it the first hundred times.

You really feel thats a fair analogy to Amigakit selling its drives with the current description?  You really feel they were that wanton and reckless?

[dannyp1]

I feel that it would be a very easy thing to add a simple sentence to the description.  It would seem to me that Amigakit if truly customer friendly would want to do it.  It wouldn't hurt anything and it might help.  OK, if you didn't like the crossing the road story, how about walking with your shoes untied, or any of a thousand other things.  The point of the story was that someone eventually didn't understand the description and if adding a sentence to the description will fix the misunderstanding, why not fix it?  I worked at a chemical company for 28 years and believe me, many times I saw change initiated by just 1 complaint.  But I am also willing to acknowledge that I live in the US and it's very possible that customer relations here might be very different than in the UK.  Lots of things are different.  Slim Whitman was bigger than Elvis or the Beatles in the UK.     :-)

[kolla]

I think it would make sense to put a disclaimer on the page. Something like...

"Note that these are modified PC floppy drives. They fit original A600 and A1200 cases, but might not fit all tower solutions. Contact us if you are unsure."

Personally I have no clue on how to modify a PC drive to work as amiga drive, and have two kylwaldas that I use . is it a simple operation?