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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Rectifiers
« on: December 27, 2008, 07:52:15 PM »
I have looked at datasheets for several rectifiers and none of them specify whether they output positive or negative DC voltage. Can the same component be used to rectify AC to either positive or negative DC voltage, or do some rectifiers output positive DC voltage and others negative?
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10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline Oliver

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2008, 02:01:33 PM »
Are you looking to rectify an AC wave from a transformer?

To understand the rectification process, think of the diodes as controlling current direction. The output of the transformer is floating, i.e. it is not referenced to 0V earth potential, unless you ground one of its electrodes.

Are you designing a power supply?
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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2008, 02:19:16 PM »
Quote
Oliver wrote:
Are you looking to rectify an AC wave from a transformer?

Yes. I want to replace my A1200 PSU with one which is built in to the plug. I can't find one in this design with 12v, -12v and 5v so I'm thinking of getting one which outputs 12vac and then using rectifiers to output 12vdc and -12vdc, and then a transformer to step the 12vdc down to 5vdc. Hopefully I can build this in to a circuit small enough to either fit inside the PSU housing or be attached to the bottom of it.

Quote
Oliver wrote:
To understand the rectification process, think of the diodes as controlling current direction.

OK, so it only allows the current to go one way and not to flow back the other, this making it DC. Is that right? Does that mean you can just swap the output of the rectifier around to get -12vdc?

Quote
Oliver wrote:
The output of the transformer is floating, i.e. it is not referenced to 0V earth potential, unless you ground one of its electrodes.

I'll take your word for that ;-)

Quote
Oliver wrote:
Are you designing a power supply?

No, adapting one :-)
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10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline Oliver

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2008, 03:47:41 AM »
Can't you buy a miniature switch mode supply for this?

Do you know how much current is required for each line?

Your approach will not work as planned. A transformer will only transform AC to AC. Running DC through a transformer will only overheat the primary coil. If you want to get these AC volages, I suggest you use a multitap transformer, then rectify the AC to get unipolar waves. You can find designs for this type of scheme online, or in introductory DC power supply text books.

Have you got some regulators in mind? The rectified waveform will need to be filtered and regulated for the computer. Compuer supplies are usually done with switch mode regulators. You may need some more detailed help to get this designed well.
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Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2008, 05:44:22 PM »
Quote
Oliver wrote:
Can't you buy a miniature switch mode supply for this?

I don't know. Could you give an example of the type of supply you mean?

Quote
Oliver wrote:
Do you know how much current is required for each line?

Yep. I need +5vdc@3.0A, +12vdc@500mA and -12vdc@100mA. That's according to the back of the A1200 PSU.

Quote
Oliver wrote:
Your approach will not work as planned. A transformer will only transform AC to AC. Running DC through a transformer will only overheat the primary coil. If you want to get these AC volages, I suggest you use a multitap transformer, then rectify the AC to get unipolar waves.

Do I really need a multitap transformer for this? Why can't I just use a 12vac power supply and tap off three spurs from its single output? One would be rectified to +12vdc, the other to -12vdc, and the last rectified and stepped down to +5vdc. Wouldn't that work?

Quote
Oliver wrote:
Have you got some regulators in mind?

No, since I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing :lol:

Quote
Oliver wrote:
The rectified waveform will need to be filtered and regulated for the computer. Compuer supplies are usually done with switch mode regulators. You may need some more detailed help to get this designed well.

Is that an offer? ;-)
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline JLF65

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2008, 12:33:13 PM »
Sounds like you're trying to make an A1200 PSU. This is what I did...

PSU

adapter
 

Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2009, 06:41:15 PM »
@JLF65
Yes I'm hoping to replace the A1200 PSU. Thanks for the links, but the power supply you linked to isn't built in to the plug, which defeats the object of building a replacement since my aim is just to have one cable.
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline Oliver

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2009, 03:12:07 PM »
Hi Moto,

The supply linked to by JLF65 was the type I was thinking of. If that is not small enough to fit into your plug pack, then I suspect you may be out of luck. If you are building a basic linear regulated power supply, then I doubt you will make it any smaller than the Pico PSU, though you may be able to, with a really good shoe horn.

Here is a data sheet with a basic +-12VDC supply design, in figure 18. There are various ways that this design could be improved, with transient filters and blockers, better filter caps, over current/heat/voltage protection, etc.

There are several things to note about this kind of design.

The regulators require an input unregulated DC voltage a bit greater than their output voltages. If their input voltages are too high, the regs will suffer from unnecessary heating / poor efficiency. To get the calculations right for this, a quick search turned up this link, which I think has most of the info you will need.

The regulators will need heat sinks, though probably not forced ventilation.

If you want really good handling of fault conditions, then the design gets a little more involved. Simple handling of fault conditions is not too difficult, but less robust. Faults on the AC mains side can be handled with a good outboard line filter. Small and cheap line filters are fairly limited, and usually have poor failure modes - i.e. if the fault is beyond the range of their components to handle, then the full fault is experienced by their load circuit. If you have a good quality mains supply, then cheap filters will be sufficient for nearly all faults. If you have a really poor supply, then it may be worth using a more expensive filter. If you really want to learn electronics in depth, then you could try making your own multistage, guaranteed failure mode circuit protection. There are many options and combinations of solutions available in this regard. One thing you can keep in mind, is that the regulators have some fault handling capacity, though a robust supply will handle regulator failure (they can open up in failure, and provide over current to the load). Designing fault handling is not extremely difficult, though it can be confusing for a beginner, and it is also not something which I have a lot of experience with.

To get a +5V supply, the usual means is to have an additional winding, or tap on your mains transformer, which is also referenced to the grounded center tap. You than have an additional regulator stage equivalent to your +12V supply. Alternatively, you may place a +5VDC regulator after your +12VDC supply stage. However, such a regulator would have to handle an input voltage quite a bit higher than the output voltage, and would experience degraded efficiency and higher heat dissipation. You could use a 7805 with a decent thermal mating surface, such as a TO220 package.

There are a many options for your +-12VDC regulators. Some dual tracking types could probably provide a high grade of regulation, though may be a little more complicated to design for. I suggest using linear regulators throughout, as they are much simpler than switch mode, and have fewer components, and less maths involved in their application.

Let me know how you go, and if you need some clarification on any of the above. I suspect it will still be simpler/smaller/better to adapt something like a Pico PSU for your application. Of course that may not be suitable, for whatever reason.

Cheers,

Oli


edit- PS: I hope you are really competant with electrical safety, and understand how to comply with your electical codes of conduct etc. It would be a real shame to put someone's life in danger, or burn a house down, over a miggy power supply. Also, understand that building this device may infringe on conditions of some of your insurance policies.
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Offline pyrre

Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2009, 01:40:45 AM »
moto can use DC-DC converters to make +5V


EDIT:
link
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Offline Oliver

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2009, 12:07:00 PM »
Quote
pyrre wrote:
...link


I think that is a bit big for the intended application. One can use a DC-DC converter on a single chip, and with external components, the entire stage would fit on a medium sized coin. I haven't recommended this as they are a little more complicated to design for. A very simple linear regulator is fine for this, though a small heat sink would also be required.

On the subject of heat sinks, it should be possible to have all regulators mounted to a single heat sink; it is a common design feature to have a grounded heat sink on voltage regulators. Verify with data sheets, of course.
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Offline pyrre

Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2009, 06:41:08 AM »
After reading trough my electronics books.
It could be done fairly easy with a resistor and a zener diode of proper values....
Amiga 1200 Tower Os 3.9
BPPC 603e+ 040-25/200, 256MBram, BVIsionPPC, Indivision AGA MK2.
Amiga 2000 (rev 4.0) Os 1.2/1.3
2088 bridgeboard, 2MB ram card, 2091 SCSI.
Amiga 500+ Os 2.1
Derringer 030, 32MBram, Buddha in sidecar, Indivision ECS.
Amiga CD32
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2009, 08:46:06 AM »
Quote

pyrre wrote:
After reading trough my electronics books.
It could be done fairly easy with a resistor and a zener diode of proper values....


Wouldn't the output be too "dirty" for a computer?

Offline motorollinTopic starter

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Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009, 09:48:49 AM »
Thanks for all the info guys. I think this is too complicated for my basic knowledge of electronics. I had hoped it would be as simple as knowing what voltage was going in and what voltage was coming out of the transformers/rectifiers, but it seems there are more considerations that that. Also, I don't think I can get the PSU I want anyway, so I'll just stick with the original A1200 supply.

Thanks anyway!
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline pyrre

Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2009, 09:07:30 PM »
Quote

Wouldn't the output be too "dirty" for a computer?

I have no idea.
but
Quote

A Zener diode used in this way is known as a shunt voltage regulator (shunt, in this context, meaning connected in parallel, and voltage regulator being a class of circuit that produces a stable voltage across any load).
In a sense, a portion of the current through the resistor is shunted through the Zener diode, and the rest is through the load. Thus the voltage that the load sees is controlled by causing some fraction of the current from the power source to bypass it—hence the name, by analogy with locomotive switching points.

I cant see any reason why it would be...
Amiga 1200 Tower Os 3.9
BPPC 603e+ 040-25/200, 256MBram, BVIsionPPC, Indivision AGA MK2.
Amiga 2000 (rev 4.0) Os 1.2/1.3
2088 bridgeboard, 2MB ram card, 2091 SCSI.
Amiga 500+ Os 2.1
Derringer 030, 32MBram, Buddha in sidecar, Indivision ECS.
Amiga CD32
Video decoder
 

Offline pyrre

Re: Rectifiers
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2009, 09:09:48 PM »
@ motorollin
Why not build a pico psu inside an a500 psu box...
pico psu wil provide 30, 60 or even 120W of power...
discrete packaging inside the a500 psu box as a bonus...
Amiga 1200 Tower Os 3.9
BPPC 603e+ 040-25/200, 256MBram, BVIsionPPC, Indivision AGA MK2.
Amiga 2000 (rev 4.0) Os 1.2/1.3
2088 bridgeboard, 2MB ram card, 2091 SCSI.
Amiga 500+ Os 2.1
Derringer 030, 32MBram, Buddha in sidecar, Indivision ECS.
Amiga CD32
Video decoder