MorphOS 2 vs. AmigaOS 4.1 (pros/cons)

[KimmoK]

@Piru

Not going to argue further about currently not existing advantage...


but...

It seems that it is possible to buy second hand G4 MacMini for the price of a new Efika. But MOS is not yet available for MacMini.

When will it be? Any rough deadline set yet?

(not going to buy any hardware that does not have any usable AmigalikeOS)

update:
According to the official information, MOS supports only Efika and Pegasos1&2. Is the classic Amiga support discontinued?
http://www.morphos.de/hardware.html

update:
Found a collection of MacMini specs:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/index-macmini.html

It seems that the 1.5Ghz version is the only sensible option. But some MOS guys say that 128M is minimum for accelerated Ambient whatever? Macmini never had that much??

[xeron]

The Amiga backwards compatibility is better in MorphOS than in OS4,

To a degree, but i doubt there are many 68k apps you use on MOS that won't also work on OS4.

Personally I like MUI4 (and *the many programs*(!) using it) much better than Reaction,

Well.. back in the OS3.9 days I would have agreed that I prefer MUI to ReAction, but since OS4's ReAction has been greatly improved, I now prefer it. Then again, i'm not super familiar with MUI4, but then, I doubt you're super familiar with OS4 reaction.

 and since the entire desktop is using this,

ReAction usage across OS4 is pretty comprehensive. There is very little that needs to be changed over.

ported to OS4 when it's finished for MorphOS, but until that happens it's only available for MorphOS (in beta versions).

True, but then OS4 has OWB and NetSurf. NetSurf is fast, but doesn't have JavaScript. OWB is really not that far behind Sputnik any more. Maybe tabs.. can't think of anything else.

In my eyes, MorphOS is the clear winner! :-)

Well, theres no accounting for taste. I had both, but when i needed money, I had to sell one. The Peg had to go.

[xeron]

Sputnik is a *native* browser, the other one is a SDL recompile

I *can* call BS on that one. OWB hasn't been a simple SDL recompile for a *LONG* time. It has had a proper ReAction GUI for several versions. It used some functions from the SDL libraries, but a lot of the rendering code was changed to use OS4 native calls, and it has had a native ReAction GUI for a long time now.

The latest version doesn't use SDL at all. Not one bit. It only uses standard OS4 APIs. Its a lot faster than the old builds, too.

OWB grab.

[xeron]

But if you are going to degrade the Amiga to some kind of loader for recompiled X11 and SDL apps

Pfft. Hardly. I don't have Cygnix installed. SDL is mainly used for games and demos, and they wouldn't really be any different even if they used Picasso96 directly.

OS4 runs plenty of Amiga 68k software, and has a pretty decent array of native software that grows all the time.

[Gebrochen]

@ Amiga4Ever:
Since takemehomegrandma got involved and showed you a website, I'll give you the old os4 website, however, bearing in mind, HANS is right, a lot more features and functionality are available now in os4.1 versus os4.0

http://os4.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php%3Foption=content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=30.html

Cheers.

P.S. You could do what I was thinking of doing, both. I only canged my mind, due to the efika clearly not usable as a daily system versus sam, even though they both are low specs, sam will provide daily and general usage for me, and will replace my windows/linux/aros/xamiga/amithlon/amikit, but will bot replace my a1000 and a1200, due to the classical floppy loading and crunching that I enjoy so much and makes me remember of my youth.

Personally, If I were you, I would only consider getting MorphOS if you can obtain a peg or something a like, forget it with efika, not worth it.

As for sam440ep, well, It arrives tomorow according to the UPS tracker, so, I canmake another comment near the end of the week perhaps!

Another Idea, maybe place your country and city down like many others here, and maybe some people on here, will give you the chance to use their MorphOS or A1/Micro/Sam os4.1.

I know I was happy using my friends A1 with the old os4.0,despite some flaws I noticed, that now, from reviews and much reading and researching, have been fixed.

IMHO, both oses have a way to go yet for the hardcore users, but for the general users, that only require general needs, both are nice niche OSes that are capable of replacing your wndows system as a daily use, however, I am keeping my pc system xp, just in case I need to run a program(doubt it, I dont take work home with me), and I suggest your best keep current pc as well for those times you get itchy to play Oblivion, or Gothic III. (smiles, yes I know, Ive been sucked in with the white sheep, but Im stil a black sheep)

Mmmm, One last note, It is important that you realise, you can have duel boot functionality anyway, meaning, you can have linux/aros/(think zeta) as well as your Amiga OS you chose in the end.

Sorry for the long writing.  :-o

Cheers, and, have a shot of your friends peg before you buy it, you might not even like it, who knows, I know I wouldnt mind a peg next to my sam, and have like a day in day out swap of oses. BUT no longer windows at home use if avoidable for me, our work xp pc's are duel core,etc,etc, and extremely slow in every way, it pisses me off. even my A1200 is faster in various aspects.

 :lol:

[Crumb]

@Matt_H

MorphOS has AmiNetRadio with tons of plugins too.


@Varthall

ixemul already allowed running X11 apps years ago, even on 68k, time before OS4 or MorphOS even existed.

You can run older versions of GIMP on 68k amigas with GeekGadgets x11 environment.

If no updated versions exist for OS3/MOS is more a problem of lack interest from developers in recompiling modern versions.


@xeron

IMHO Reaction Drag'n'drop support and custom class creation isn't as comfortable as MUI but it's a matter of personal preferences. Years ago I prefered Reaction but I have learned a little MUI coding and I think it's sligthly more comfortable for the coder and more configurable for the user. Since OS4 supports both Reaction and MUI it has the best of both worlds :-)

About OS4.1 I just hope a version is released for classics with 5volt Radeon cards :-) For CyberstormPPC it shouldn't be too hard but I guess that an A1200 version would require a scsi driver in order to attract sales.

[Hans_]

@takemehomegrandma

When taken together your claims form an inaccurate picture.

Amiga backwards compatibility? Well this is an established fact, and it hasn't happened by itself, but by hard and persistent work from the MorphOS developers to make the OS that way. This should be acknowledged, not belittled. The OS4 team didn't have this feature as prioritized as the MorphOS team, they had another vision and wanted to do things in a different way instead. I'm *not* saying OS4 sucks in this regard, only that MorphOS has *better* backwards compatibility. For instance, read what "Toaks" has to say about it here. He has both MorphOS and OS4, and what he says on that page and a few pages forward is that both systems are nice and good and all, but due to some different priorities and views, MorphOS has better backwards compatibility.

I'm not sure what Toaks' background is, but saying that The OS4 team didn't have backward compatibility as a priority is inaccurate. Toaks' post contains assumptions and opinion. The truth is that the 68k apps that crash on OS 4.1 mostly crash due to hidden bugs that OS4's parital memory protection catches. So, the crashing is actually a good thing, because it prevents apps from destabilizing the whole OS. Moreover, Amiga OS 4.1 has improved things here.

Or was it that the MorphOS desktop (Ambient) is light years ahead of any Workbench? Anyone that has used and followed Ambient's development knows how it started as an inferior desktop that everyone replaced with the original Amiga Workbench or Directory Opus Magellan the first thing they did. In MorphOS 2.0 I seriously doubt that anyone has replaced Ambient with Workbench, and this is for a reason!

I doubt that they could replace it with Amiga OS 4.1's workbench because it probably wouldn't run properly. Workbench is indeed a component in serious need of updating, but even that has been improved in Amiga OS 4.1. The major item that's missing is browsing directories without having to open new windows every time you open a drawer. Seeing as you haven't seen Amiga OS 4.1's Workbench in action, saying that Ambient is light-years ahead is on shaky ground.

Or was it the USB stack? Can you *really* claim that OS4's USB stack is better in *any* way? And the same with printing, where are the OS4 advantages?

Poseidon has isosynchronous transfers and USB 2.0, so it is better, but you make it sound like it leaves OS 4.1's stack in the dust. OS 4.1's stack has improved over OS 4.0.

I can't comment about printing because I've never used Turboprint (the 68k version can be used on OS4) on any system. However, OS4's printing system has had some internal changes which I can't comment upon until the next SDK is released.

Whether you like MUI 4.0 (and all the MUI apps out there) and appreciates a clean and consistent user interface experience when using them, as well as the MUI customization options for all the programs and the desktop itself, is a matter of taste. As I said.

You're implying that, because Reaction is the default GUI system on OS4, that it doesn't have a clean and consistent user interface experience. This is completely untrue. All apps on OS4 have a consistent look and feel regardless of whether it uses Reaction or MUI.

Sputnik is a *native* browser, the other one is a SDL recompile. A matter of taste. Sputnik is said to become available for OS4 as well, so there might not even be a problem there. But if you are going to degrade the Amiga to some kind of loader for recompiled X11 and SDL apps, then I think someone missed a point somewhere. Use Linux instead. Heck, with a simple VNC client you could even run Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office, how about that! :-P

Wrong, as Xeron said, OWB is not an SDL recompile. And this highlights my point regarding your post, you're trying to give a comparison when you don't really know enough about the other system to make a proper comparison.

OWB never was just a recompile, even when it used SDL. It's come a long way since then and it has a Reaction GUI. The latest Amiga OS 4.1 version uses the native Cairo API for rendering which is just as fast, but far more powerful than using the graphics library (which is what the older version did).

Hans

[pVC]

I am using both MorphOS2.1 on Pegasos1 and AmigaOS4.1 on A1XE at the moment.

My personal opinion is that MorphOS is more advanced in almost all areas now. MorphOS is more mature and finished production, while OS4.1 needs developing on many areas still.

The most noticeable problem with OS4.1 is the lack of the features in Workbench and especially with the file handling. Roughly said WB is pretty much on same level than on 3.9, while MorphOS's Ambient has developed a LOT. Ambient has lots of features copied from Magellan2 and most users don't even need any external filemanager anymore. On OS4.1 you have to rely on old time two view filemanagers like Dopus4, which isn't comfortable at all for me anymore, as I've used more advanced filemanagers on classic Amigas over ten years.

I also find the OS4.1's oldskool prefs system pretty messy nowadays, when there is much more settings needed than 20 years ago. MorphOS has them more clearly organized and rearranged. OS4.1's prefs also don't feel consistent.. it feels like they've taken prefs from old programs from here and there and haven't adapted them with any plan.

MUI4 is a big advantage for MorphOS. I've always like MUI's way to have power for configuration on user. MUI4 has gotten a lot better than MUI3.x was. It also gives consistency to system and programs as MUI got as de facto standard on Amiga and for example most networking programs use it. Now you can tune whole system with it.

MorphOS's shell is much more advanced than OS4.1's. In OS4.1 you don't have even scrollbar or backbuffer etc, but in MorphOS you have those and even search options for buffer, multiple tabs on one shell, session saving, terminal emulations for ssh use etc etc.

Poseidon4 on MorphOS is also great USB stack. It's feature rich and supports USB2 speeds etc. On OS4.1 I've had some weirdness with USB. With several devices it seems to work bit unreliable. It also is very slow mounting big mass storage devices.. takes almost minute before there comes icon on workbench with my external HD. On MorphOS that's instant. OS4.1 also supports USB1.1 speeds only.

Filetype system is also great on MorphOS, you can define lots of actions for each file type (mimetype). What happens when you doubleclick file, drag&drop file, click it with RMB etc. You can have several different commands for each action. Filetypes are also arranged hierarchly and they inherit the options to lower levels. You can for example make certain actions happen for all pictures and then more exact options for each individual picture format. On OS4.1 you only can edit icon's default tool for each file type.

One nice touch in MorphOS is the "open" command, you can open files from shell with it. It looks operations from Ambient's mimetype settings and uses them to open files. For example "open test.avi" plays movie like it's configured in mimetypes, you don't have to remember what program or options would be needed for that file type.

Then there's lots of small details, like screen title bar modules in MorphOS. You can have things like date, cpu monitor, volume control, network indicators, info from music player etc in screen titlebar.. and the best thing is that it shows up in all screens! Not just on desktop screen. So if you have browser in separate screen, you can see and use all those things on it without need to open Ambient screen.

Amidock on OS4.1 is more versatile than Panels in MorphOS. Amidock can take all kinds of dockies like clock, cpu monitor, lenses etc, but personally I don't like dock kind of things. I'll rather have those kind of apps in MorphOS's screenbar module way.

Overall look and eyecandy is also better in MorphOS. There's cool themes for windows, about 30 different screenblankers (even 3D accelerated demoscene effects), nice background pictures and other gfx, colorful png mouse pointers etc. They really should think these things with OS4 too.. now there's ugly yellowish backgrounds with weird purple scrollbar backgrounds as default theme.

OS installation also tells about finishing touches. MorphOS installer is good looking with only some main points covered. After installation everything is ready in first boot. On OS4.1 there's lots of useless requesters telling what's going to happen next, but then at the end nobody tells if the installation was finished There also opens some external windows, which shouldn't be visible to users IMHO. Installation is divided in two phases and there's reboot needed in between. Also some default settings are bad. For example AHI settings had defaulted to mute, no channels, 0 frequency.

I also like MorphOS's IControl prefs. You can define hotkeys for all kind of actions. For example window handling options are good. You can define mouse/keyboard actions to bring windows to front, send them to back, center them, maximize them, activate prev/next etc. You also can do certain things for whole window families. For example bring to front all open windows of certain application. In OS4.1 they're handled with traditional commodities and by default there isn't many.. basically it's old ClickToFront commodity.

OS4 has nice soft reboot, which is fast. MorphOS takes little longer to boot because it does the open firmware stuff in each reboot.

3D support or WOS emulation in OS4 seems to be unfinished. All old Amiga's 3D/PPC games and demos I've tried had problems under OS4.1 while they worked on MorphOS.

Old OS friendly apps seem to work pretty fine under both systems. Some work better under OS4 and some under MorphOS. But OS4.1 feels to be more crashy when they don't work correctly. Worst thing is that filemanagers seem to suffer under OS4.1. But some wordprocessing etc big apps work fine under 4.1, some even better than on MorphOS.

I must say I am bit disappointed on 4.1... especially after getting MorphOS in such fine condition with 2.x releases. And when it's selling as completely new product and not an update to 4.0. But if there wouldn't be MorphOS I surely would be tinkering with OS4 more Although filemanagement area should be much more advanced to be able have it as my main platform... I really hope it will get better and more mature product, but there is work to do still.

[arkanoid]

MOS

[uncleted]

What's so bad about SDL anyway?

SDL is a standardised API for accessing graphics, sound and other hardware across many different platforms. It has nothing to do with X11 unless you're talking about it running on Linux.

I'd much rather program for SDL than Picasso96/Cybergraphx and AHI.

You've got to be a bit realistic here, the Amiga market is miniscule compared to the huge amount of platforms SDL works on.  SDL opens up ports which we probably never see otherwise.

[Christian Johansson]

Seems like there is WarpOS-emulation for SAM now too.

http://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2208&forum=3

[takemehomegrandma]

Hans_ wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

When taken together your claims form an inaccurate picture.

No they don't, and I was going to write a reply to that, but then I saw that pVC already had! ;-)

[Hans_]

takemehomegrandma wrote:

Hans_ wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

When taken together your claims form an inaccurate picture.

No they don't, and I was going to write a reply to that, but then I saw that pVC already had! ;-)

Actually, pVC gave his impressions on both systems, not a reply to me. More importantly pVC has actually used both systems so he knows what he's talking about, you don't (with regard to Amiga OS 4.1 that is).

Hans

[itix]

@Hans

Or was it that the MorphOS desktop (Ambient) is light years ahead of any Workbench? Anyone that has used and followed Ambient's development knows how it started as an inferior desktop that everyone replaced with the original Amiga Workbench or Directory Opus Magellan the first thing they did. In MorphOS 2.0 I seriously doubt that anyone has replaced Ambient with Workbench, and this is for a reason!

I doubt that they could replace it with Amiga OS 4.1's workbench because it probably wouldn't run properly.

I dont think he meant OS 4.0/4.1 Workbench but WB from OS 3.9. First versions of Ambient (and later also...) were so limited in features that some users found it better replace it by Workbench from OS 3.9.

[Hans_]

@pVC

You seem to have had some problems with OS 4.1 that I haven't had. For example, I've used USB drives and they pop up instantly for me. With the exception of my Force 3D pro having the z and throttle axes swapped, I haven't experienced any USB issues. I know that others have though, but they seem to be related to specific products.

MorphOS's shell is much more advanced than OS4.1's. In OS4.1 you don't have even scrollbar or backbuffer etc, but in MorphOS you have those and even search options for buffer, multiple tabs on one shell, session saving, terminal emulations for ssh use etc etc.

It's coming for OS 4.x, and this is one of the features that I really want. I've used vinced in the past, but it's not that great.

Overall look and eyecandy is also better in MorphOS. There's cool themes for windows, about 30 different screenblankers (even 3D accelerated demoscene effects), nice background pictures and other gfx, colorful png mouse pointers etc. They really should think these things with OS4 too.. now there's ugly yellowish backgrounds with weird purple scrollbar backgrounds as default theme.

What ugly yellowish background? That's not the OS 4.1 default theme. I'm currently using png mouse pointers on OS 4.1. Oh, and have you tried out the 3D accelerated blankers on OS4?

OS installation also tells about finishing touches. MorphOS installer is good looking with only some main points covered. After installation everything is ready in first boot. On OS4.1 there's lots of useless requesters telling what's going to happen next, but then at the end nobody tells if the installation was finished There also opens some external windows, which shouldn't be visible to users IMHO. Installation is divided in two phases and there's reboot needed in between. Also some default settings are bad. For example AHI settings had defaulted to mute, no channels, 0 frequency.

I never noticed it opening additional windows that shouldn't be visible. And my default AHI settings worked just fine.  after installation.

I also like MorphOS's IControl prefs. You can define hotkeys for all kind of actions. For example window handling options are good. You can define mouse/keyboard actions to bring windows to front, send them to back, center them, maximize them, activate prev/next etc. You also can do certain things for whole window families. For example bring to front all open windows of certain application. In OS4.1 they're handled with traditional commodities and by default there isn't many.. basically it's old ClickToFront commodity.

3D support or WOS emulation in OS4 seems to be unfinished. All old Amiga's 3D/PPC games and demos I've tried had problems under OS4.1 while they worked on MorphOS.

Which games? I've run Wipeout no problem; I wasn't too interested in other old games. I'm still working on MiniGL (the OS 4.1 version was a beta) so if you have any issues with 3D (not for old 68k/WarpOS games though), please let me know.

Hans

[Hans_]

itix wrote:
@Hans

Or was it that the MorphOS desktop (Ambient) is light years ahead of any Workbench? Anyone that has used and followed Ambient's development knows how it started as an inferior desktop that everyone replaced with the original Amiga Workbench or Directory Opus Magellan the first thing they did. In MorphOS 2.0 I seriously doubt that anyone has replaced Ambient with Workbench, and this is for a reason!

I doubt that they could replace it with Amiga OS 4.1's workbench because it probably wouldn't run properly.

I dont think he meant OS 4.0/4.1 Workbench but WB from OS 3.9. First versions of Ambient (and later also...) were so limited in features that some users found it better replace it by Workbench from OS 3.9.

Well, if we're comparing MOS 2.1 with AOS 4.1, then comparing Ambient with AOS 3.9's Workbench doesn't make sense. Workbench has been improved, although the basic way of accessing files hasn't changed.

Hans