SAM 440 - What would owning one mean to you?

[Hans_]

@HopperJF

I jumped from an A1200 with an 030 @40 MHz and 32 MB RAM to an A1-XE G4 @800 MHz. Trust me, being able to watch movies, listen to mp3s, and use truecolour screens without slowdown on an Amiga is sooo easy to get used to. The A1200 did feel fast and responsive, but the modern Amiga is so much better.

Hans

[takemehomegrandma]

Hans_ wrote:

(why on earth is the FPGA there for starters)

For industrial customers.

Ah, those "industrial customers" again. I wonder who they are...? Are there any at all? I somehow doubt it in this case. There are countless of boards and PCI cards with FPGA's out there, each with various customizations for various needs. The Sam clearly has desktop ambitions (a standard desktop form factor, all controllers and connectivity options you would expect from a desktop motherboard (unfortunately they all (including GFX) sits on the same PCI bus)), and it has a premium desktop price tag, but a CPU performance that doesn't fit that picture at all.

A product *must* be a response to some kind of *market demand*, and the specifications *must* be set from that. I have a strong feeling that Acube started off at the wrong end by simply designing a set of specifications they themselves thought would be "cool", and because of that missing the "small detail" of market demand. Which simply isn't there.

There are no "industrial customers", that's nothing more than a reflex response that's being thrown around that doesn't mean anything. They will perhaps sell some 50-150 boards to OS4 nerds ready to pay premium price simply because it's the only way of running OS4, and because it has a similar component ("The Incredible FPGA") that someone made a MiniMig of and Jens Schönfeld made something else of (ie some kind of geek cool factor). And that's not too bad actually. But I can't see who else on earth would buy it?

If they can find enough industrial customers then they might be able lower the cost.

Well, if you start buying components by tens of thousands, you can of course start bargaining on the prices. However, economy of scale can only reach that far, and a high volume does not make the board less complex, use less components, less layers, etc. And it will never come close to quantities that matters anyway...

Besides that, it could prove to be a good toy for those who know how to use it.

A toy? Could?

I'm sorry, but if there is no market need, if there is no purpose, if no-one (including Acube) had a clear view of what to do with it, then it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Your pot belly may be cute and sexy *in your own* eyes, but in most cases it's only an extra burden that serves no purpose, and if it only scares the chicks away from you because there are options out there that doesn't suffer from this "extra weight", then you would be much better off without it.

If they could have, they probably would have. In fact, the SAM 440 flex is probably going to be cheaper.

Yes probably.

But I can't understand why they persist in using the 440 in a *desktop design*? It's misplaced in that context! I could understand their CPU of choice if it had been a more customized device for a special purpose, some kind of hand held thing, an embedded product of some kind. But even then it wouldn't compete with the 5121e in any aspect, so...

For a desktop design, I wish they would consider making a SAM 8640 (single core) instead, using an AMD SB750 southbridge. It would be a quite nice machine:

- One (or two) e600 core with altivec running at 1.25GHz
- PCI Express x16 slot for graphic cards (8 lanes connected)
- 4 Gigabit Ethernet connectors
- Up to 6 SATA 3.0 Gbit/s hard disk drives, with RAID 0, 1, 5, 0+1 support
- eSATA
- 1 IDE channel for HyperFlash module
- Up to 14 USB ports (12 USB 2.0 and 2 USB 1.1)
- HD Audio
- Infrared receiver/transmitter port compatible with IrDA standards
- Super I/O (not really needed with that many USB's?)

Make it as a Micro-ATX motherboard. A perfect little two-chip developer desktop! :-)

With the dual core version, you could even have two operating systems running at the same time! :-)

Or why not a SAM 8610, with the same south bridge and form factor as above?

Speaking of that, have you seen this one?



It's the "Redtail" board from some Japanese developer. Look at it, it's about the size of an Efika, and the 8610 is probably *the fastest* 32-bit PPC CPU ever made.

I'd *happily* pay the SAM's price for that one! ;-)

[NovaCoder]

Personally I'm very happy to see new 0S4 capable HW available....it's something everyone's wanted after all  :-P

Yes it's not perfect (PCI Express and 4GB ram support would have been perfect), it is expensive....but it makes a whole lot more sense to me than adding a PPC card to a 1200.

If I had the spare cash, I'd certainly look into getting one.

What will be interesting is what happens after the legal 'stuff' has finished.

 :-D

[Lorraine]

/

[yakumo9275]

that redtail board looks awesome.

[zylesea]

Amithony wrote:
I thought id throw this out there.

It would mean just another ppc amiga at home, which wouldn't be bad thing, but I have two ppc Amigas already (Pegasos & Efika), that's enough for now. Next maschine is probably Mac Mini (MorphOS powered). The Sam is skipped by me - no benefit: too expensive, no advance over the Pegasos, prefer MorphOS over OS 4.x for many  reasons.

[Methuselas]

SAM 440 - What would owning one mean to you?

It would mean I would be spending 700$ to heckle Atheist every time he pops in here, claiming that the Amiga will make a come back and how "stupid" we are for not seeing it. If I had one, he'd have no rebuttal since I'd be in the "red" camp, so I could heckle him to my heart's content, only it's never going to happen.

On second thought.....this isn't a bad idea.

*snort*



 :-P

[Hans_]

takemehomegrandma wrote:
Ah, those "industrial customers" again. I wonder who they are...? Are there any at all? ...

Your post is filled with assertions based on all sorts of assumptions. No industrial customers? How the heck would you know? Are you privy to ACube's business dealings? Their business plan? No, you're not. So you really don't know.

... They will perhaps sell some 50-150 boards to OS4 nerds ready to pay premium price simply because it's the only way of running OS4, and because it has a similar component ("The Incredible FPGA") that someone made a MiniMig of and Jens Schönfeld made something else of (ie some kind of geek cool factor). ...

And now you're just being directly insulting and demeaning to the whole OS4 community. So typical.

Besides that, it could prove to be a good toy for those who know how to use it.

A toy? Could?

I'm sorry, but if there is no market need, if there is no purpose, if no-one (including Acube) had a clear view of what to do with it, then it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

What I mean, is that it's up to the creativity of developers. Once again, you are assuming that they spent all that time and money for just a few hundred sales to Amiga enthusiasts.

But I can't understand why they persist in using the 440 in a *desktop design*? It's misplaced in that context!

Firstly, you're the one asserting that it's a desktop design. A desktop board with the possibility of having a Mini-PCI slot? Sounds like they have something else planned to me. Secondly, it would have been the best choice for whatever their requirements were, at the time when they started.

I could understand their CPU of choice if it had been a more customized device for a special purpose, some kind of hand held thing, an embedded product of some kind. But even then it wouldn't compete with the 5121e in any aspect, so...

Have you ever designed a motherboard? If you're already grumbling about the price of the SAM 440ep, then what exactly would you expect if a more expensive, more complex, chip were used? Also, if what I have read is correct, the CPUs that you suggest that they should use were introduced in 2007, after ACube started working on the SAM motherboard.

Hans

[zyphoid]

takemehomegrandma wrote:

Dwyloc wrote:

I looked at purchasing one and a copy of morphos when morphos 2.0 was released but it was going to workout almost as expensive as the SAM and OS4 is now

That my friend, is very hard to believe! The Efika motherboard is very small and very light weight, and shipment from Directron.com to Europe can't possibly be an issue. Maybe if you fly over to the states to pick it up yourself it will, but... ;-)

Directron.com doesn't ship overseas
as for the efika...it doesn't play or burn to dvd!!, or cd's for that matter!! sam is also more powerful!

[Methuselas]

zyphoid wrote:

Directron.com doesn't ship overseas

Yeah, but I do. :-P I've even offered to.

[takemehomegrandma]

zyphoid wrote:

Directron.com doesn't ship overseas

That's not what I heard, I have read posts from several people in Europe who ordered from them. However, you can't do it through the webshop. You will have to mail them directly and agree on shipping and payment options.
 

as for the efika...it doesn't play or burn to dvd!!, or cd's for that matter!!

Indeed it's correct that the Efika has lower specs than the Sam and it's not suitable for "desktop use" for everyone, no-one has ever claimed different.

The main feature of the Efika is its low price. And that's not a bad feature! Some people are obviously happy to live with the limited specs and none existent expansion options beyond what comes through USB1.1 as long as they don't have to take a second mortage on the house just to try out MorphOS 2.1. But of course it doesn't suit everyone.

sam is also more powerful!

Marginally more powerful perhaps (I haven't seen any real life comparisons), but it still doesn't qualify to be called *powerful*. The 440 and the 5200B is in the same class of CPU's...

[hbarcellos]

Hey, Can I run Amiga OS 4 on that U$ 99 Efika? Is it compatible with any AGP Video card, like a Radeon 9600?

[takemehomegrandma]

Hans_ wrote:

No industrial customers? How the heck would you know? Are you privy to ACube's business dealings? Their business plan? No, you're not. So you really don't know.

Outside the Amiga community there is this thing called "competition", where a great deal of options are available at very attractive prices from many, many producers. That any "industrial customer" (whatever that is) would choose the Sam in its current shape, form and price over anything (whatever) else that is available from everywhere is highly unlikely.
 

... They will perhaps sell some 50-150 boards to OS4 nerds ready to pay premium price simply because it's the only way of running OS4, and because it has a similar component ("The Incredible FPGA") that someone made a MiniMig of and Jens Schönfeld made something else of (ie some kind of geek cool factor). ...

And now you're just being directly insulting and demeaning to the whole OS4 community. So typical.

No I'm not. Everyone knows that the Sam is the only option for any new user to get a OS4.1 system, and obviously some (but not that many) are ready to pay the very high price in order to do that. And not a single one has publicly expressed any critical thoughts about the FPGA, despite no-one (not even Acube) has a use for it, and it only sitting there like a cancer bump that has brought nothing to the board but a high price (hence preventing people from getting on board). Rather the opposite, in online discussions you sense some admiration for FPGA's in general and the various and completely unrelated "Amiga in a FPGA" projects in particular.  

Besides that, it could prove to be a good toy for those who know how to use it.

A toy? Could?

I'm sorry, but if there is no market need, if there is no purpose, if no-one (including Acube) had a clear view of what to do with it, then it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

What I mean, is that it's up to the creativity of developers.

And what could that be in your opinion, that a "real" controller of the same sort couldn't do better and cheaper? I mean, until anyone figure out what the h-ll the thing could be used for, I still think it shouldn't be there. Specifications must come from a real market demand, you can't do it the other way around. They should have put it on an optional PCI daughter card or whatever.

Once again, you are assuming that they spent all that time and money for just a few hundred sales to Amiga enthusiasts.

Everything Acube is and have done is about Amiga. They (both Acube and Hyperion) has made it no secret that this is "the new Amiga", they use the Frieden's "OS4 firmware", they have been granted the exclusive distribution rights of OS4, 50% of their front web page is a big OS4.1 ad, promotion materials they released has looked identical to the OS4 visual style (colors, gradients, fonts, etc). The Sam is made by Amigans, for Amigans, and that is no secret. Unfortunately, there aren't many left who is prepared to pay that price for that kind of hardware, and I still can't imagine who on earth outside the Amiga community would even take a Sam in consideration, it would drown in the competition. This "industrial customers" was a term that Alan Redhouse used frequently as well when he was pushing the "A1". Maybe this kind of talk works when speaking to your bank for financing (if your banker is ignorant enough), but in reality (the one outside the rose tinted fuzzy Amiga reality) I don't think that neither Alan Redhouse nor Acube has sold many boards to "industrial customers". Amiga nerds willing to pay anything for anything labeled "Amiga" is a completely different matter. No market rules apply, it's a cult monopoly of loyal brand followers.

But I can't understand why they persist in using the 440 in a *desktop design*? It's misplaced in that context!

Firstly, you're the one asserting that it's a desktop design.

But open your eyes and look at it. It's a board made in a desktop standard form factor, having the same standard desktop connectors and expandability options, using the same standard PC controllers that you find in any standard Dell PC. But the Dell PC would be at a fraction of the cost and have ten times the performance.

It's a Desktop Amiga. That's what it is.

I could understand their CPU of choice if it had been a more customized device for a special purpose, some kind of hand held thing, an embedded product of some kind. But even then it wouldn't compete with the 5121e in any aspect, so...

Have you ever designed a motherboard?

The issue isn't about motherboard designing, it's about business development.

If you're already grumbling about the price of the SAM 440ep, then what exactly would you expect if a more expensive, more complex, chip were used?

In volume, I have heard that the 5200B costs some $10-$15. The 5121e costs about the same but offers so much more. It's an entire multi core computer in one single chip, with about the same (or better) performance as the Sam 440 CPU. It has on board display controller capable of HDTV 720 resolution, on board 3D GPU, a separate 200MHz RISC core for audio acceleration (or whatever you decide to use it for), PCI 2.3, USB2, SATA, PATA, etc, etc.

The Bill of Materials for these 5121e based laptops is *below $100*, and in addition to the 5121e SoC chip they have a second chip connected to it on the PCI bus for WiFi and Bluetooth, just like LimePC concepts and the Cherrypal.

This is the power of high integration and low complexity.

Also, if what I have read is correct, the CPUs that you suggest that they should use were introduced in 2007, after ACube started working on the SAM motherboard.

While the 8610 is a new chip, the 8640(D) is merely a performance and price reduced version of the 8641(D) that has been here for a long time, but that isn't the point really. My point is that (as far as I understand) Acube is now working on "a second generation motherboard", still using the same philosophy and still using a 440 family chip. My question was why? The 8610 is probably more expensive than a 440, but I am confident that a motherboard based on this CPU and one or two extra chips (like the Redtail motherboard above) would end up being cheaper in total than a Sam. And even if it won't be cheaper, it would have performance and specifications to justify the price better.

[darksun9210]

if i had the cash i'd get one. just to support the people still developing this stuff.

i'm just glad/amazed there is a new version of the OS out there, _with hardware_ .

slamming OS4 at the moment is like slamming PPC stuff in general. there is only stuff for is when people develop for it, and people will only buyit when stuff is developed for it. catch22.
and the only stuff people want (office/games) is more redily available on cheaper platforms. so a very steep uphill stuggle. for a niche product.

so good for them, and fair play for bringing it to market. as it would be much easier to go with the nay-sayers and just give the amiga market the single finger salute as a farewell and disappear into the woodwork to work on more profitable ventures.

[takemehomegrandma]

@darksun9210

Yeah, and just to be clear I ensure you that I have only the deepest respect for Acube for their effort (maybe it doesn't look that way in my posts above). We have seen many HW attempts in the past, of which 99% crashed and burned before anything at all could materialize. It takes *a lot* to go all the way like they have done. Criticism isn't nay-saying. I expressed the same views a long time ago when I first learned about the Sam specs (long before anything tangible even existed). It's brave to make PPC desktops for niche markets! I just wish that Acube would re-think and either go for high spec&performance design at a higher price (read: current price), or low spec&performance design at a lower price. It can be done, as I tried to show above.

[persia]

So where are we?  The LimePC/THTF machines are what we want for the Amiga but what are the chances that Hyperion will do the port?

Those 7 inch screen models are wonderful, imagine an EEEPC style Amiga for US$400/£250/€310!

The vendor lock in was one of the many reasons Amiga's parents failed.