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Offline sim085Topic starter

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2008, 02:49:21 PM »
So far I still don't thing I am going to bid on the Derringer currently on eBay. I have been weighing this a lot but I feel for the amount of time I will spend on the A500+ (very little) the Derringer Card is just to expensive. Maybe in the future I will consider buying one; if ever such card becomes available again and I am interested in upgrading my A500+.

At the moment (or when all things arrive) I have a 2Gb hard drive, 2Mb slow ram (1Mb on the A500+, 1Mb ram extension board), 4Mb fast ram and kickstart 3.1.

I do not plan to install loads of games; just the ones I used to play in the past and some small programs.

@Lockon_15
> would max-out your CHIPRAM (maximum 10, but 5-6 is
> already enough).

Is chipram slow ram? If so then what does maximum 10 mean? I thought that the A500+ could only have a maximum of 2Mb slow ram.
 

Offline countzero

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2008, 02:59:40 PM »
ChipRam maxes out at 2. True for all amigas (even A4000) no way around.

Not sure what lockon meant, but he probably meant ChipRam + FastRam on the zorro2 adress space (side car) which make 10 mb in total.

There is also another adress space for the A500 (not A500+) called ranger mem. This is the place where trap door slot maps to. It is 1.8 mb AFAIR. The A500+ trap door slot maps to ChipRam address space so this space is not usable AFAIK.
I believe in mt. Fuji
 

Offline tone007

Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2008, 03:18:35 PM »
That Derringer won't go cheap...
3 Commodore file cabinets, 2 Commodore USB turntables, 1 AmigaWorld beer mug
Alienware M14x i7 laptop running AmigaForever
 

Offline sim085Topic starter

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2008, 03:33:11 PM »
@countzero
So you mean that on my A500+ I can only have upto 2Mb slow ram and 8Mb fast ram? What happens to the extra fast ram I put in?

@darksun9210
Your post on page 3 of this thread was really explanatory but I still can't understand this ram part :$

@tone007
I can imagine the price will continue going high till the very end and with that budget I could actually build a small PC server.
 

Offline countzero

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2008, 04:00:51 PM »
Slow ram and Chip ram are not the same things. Depending on the context slow ram can be used to mean as chip ram, but it's better to call chip ram, chip ram. Anyway, the answer to your question is, simply it won't be recognised, and you won't be able to use it. There may be eggzentric trap door expansions which use gary adapters to map to ranger mem space, but I doubt they will work on your A500+.

The maximum mem you can get on your A500+ is 2 mb chip ram via trap door slot and 8mb on the side car. That is without an accelerator which plugs onto 68k socket. Acclerator cards are out of these boundaries and can hold upto 128 mb of Fast ram.

Now of course when an accelerator comes into picture, you see the FastRam/SlowMem terminology turning meaningless, cause the mem on the sidecar which we called fast ram will be slow when compared to fast ram on the accelerator board. So I prefer to call them slow mem, and chip ram as chip ram. The difference between them is of course the chipset can't access the slow mem, but it can access chip ram.

To get a better picture of things, check the Amiga System Memory map. This map covers the whole 68000 addressing range (16 bit). The 68030+ accelerators have 32 bit addressing range, so they are not limited to this map.
I believe in mt. Fuji
 

Offline sim085Topic starter

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2008, 04:17:29 PM »
Thanks for the explanation :)
 

Offline darksun9210

Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2008, 04:25:10 PM »
yeah, what he said ;-)

sim085, sounds like you've got a fairly decent amiga setup there now. 2MB chip, 4MB fast, hard disk, yadda yadda yadda, i think it'll be a fun machine to play around with. maybe even get some WHDLoad goodness out of it :-)

enjoy! :-D

A500, A600, A1200x3, A2000, A3000, A4000 & a CD32.
and probably just like the rest of you, crates full of related "treasure" for the above XD
 

Offline sim085Topic starter

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2008, 05:35:07 PM »
I was just wondering something. An accelerator card is in fact another (more powerful) computer. I mean it has a Processor, it has RAM, it has a ROM chip, etc etc. Is it possible to literally connect a hard drive with the accelerator card and the accelerator card to a monitor and have a Derringer or Viper rather then an A500+? Or the A500+ motherboard has other things which these accelerator cards need?
 

Offline countzero

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2008, 05:40:24 PM »
yes, basicly all I/O is done through motherboard. They're not designed to run stand alone.

I believe in mt. Fuji
 

Offline sim085Topic starter

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2008, 06:00:36 PM »
Thanks :) I thought it was something like that but just wanted to be user :) thanks.
 

Offline pyrre

Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2008, 07:06:08 PM »
Quote
I was just wondering something. An accelerator card is in fact another (more powerful) computer. I mean it has a Processor, it has RAM, it has a ROM chip, etc etc. Is it possible to literally connect a hard drive with the accelerator card and the accelerator card to a monitor and have a Derringer or Viper rather then an A500+?


Eeeeem.... i don't think it is that easy...
In the case of the derringer i can speak. It do not hold the kickstart roms, and it most sertainly do not hold the chipset. The derringer (and others like it) holds the new CPU and it holds the clock generator for the accelerators speeds. and of course it holds the memory circuits...

Quote
Or the A500+ motherboard has other things which these accelerator cards need?

Yes, it holds everything else than the cpu and the ram.
only exceptions is the very rare cpu slot accelerators that has an additional ide/scsi controller like the DCE Viper 5230 CD, 530 and the ICD addspeed IDE...
And of course you have the sidecar accelerators...
Amiga 1200 Tower Os 3.9
BPPC 603e+ 040-25/200, 256MBram, BVIsionPPC, Indivision AGA MK2.
Amiga 2000 (rev 4.0) Os 1.2/1.3
2088 bridgeboard, 2MB ram card, 2091 SCSI.
Amiga 500+ Os 2.1
Derringer 030, 32MBram, Buddha in sidecar, Indivision ECS.
Amiga CD32
Video decoder
 

Offline Tenacious

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2008, 04:37:54 AM »
Beating a dead horse (wish I knew how to tie in the graphic, grin).

The early Amigas (1000, 500, 2000, 600, & CDTV) were all designed with 16-bit data bus on the motherboard.  Memory that could be shared by the custom chips AND CPU was addressed and refreshed by the Agnus chip. The Agnus was the traffic cop, the chip with the most authority on the motherboard.  Shared memory was called Chip memory.  

Memory that the 68000 CPU did not have to share or wait for was called Fast memory.  Fast memory expansion boards were normally added on and had their own refresh circuitry.  Amigas with CPUs that could only interface thru 16-bit data buses could be expanded with a maximum of 8 megabytes of fast ram.  This was also the Zorro II adress limit.

SLOW memory was a wierd category that Commodore should never have allowed. It is trap door memory on the original A500 (not the + model), the board was called the A501.  It was mapped outside of Chip memory space to be compatible with the earliest Agnus chips (OCS, which only allowed 512K of Chip). It was still refreshed by the Agnus, so the CPU had to wait it's turn to use it just like true Chip memory. Also, the other custom chips could not share it.  It is the worst kind of memory expansion. Confusingly, Workbench called this memory "Fast" on the title bar, even though it was neither true Fast nor true Chip memory.  There is a motherboard hack for A500s (not the + model) that allows a user to re-map the A501 to the true Chip memory space if the motherboard has a 1 Meg Agnus (ECS). Many of us have done this.

32-bit memory came into being with the first full 32-bit accelerators (68020s, 030s, 040s, and 060s).  This memory was mapped outside the Zorro II range and was fitted directly onto the accelerator.  It is technically a kind of Fast memory because the CPU does not have to share it.

The 3000, 4000, 1200, and CD-32 all had the full 32-bit data bus and CPU on the motherboard.  This is part of the Zorro III specification.

The A500+, A600, 1200, 3000, 4000, and CD-32 all shipped with the latest and greatest 2 Meg Agnus chips (ECS).  No motherboard re-mapping required!

The 1000, early 500s and 2000s had the Original Chip Set (OCS).  Later 500s, 2000s, 600s, 3000s, and CDTVs had the Enhansed Chip Set (ECS). ECS Agnus was defined as both the 1 Meg and 2 Meg versions, I think.  The 1200, 4000 and CD-32 had improved custom chips called AGA (better graphics).  A version of the ECS Agnus was used in AGA machines.

Sorry for the long windedness!
 

Offline sim085Topic starter

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2008, 09:18:12 AM »
Hi sorry to bring this thread up, but a new question popped to my head and wanted to see if there are any answers for it :-)

So since A1200 accelerator cards seem to be (1) more frequently available and (2) more powerful; Is there some converter which would allow an A500+ owner to stick an A1200 accelerator card rather then an A500+ accelerator card?

If not (which is the most obvious answer I guess), why not?

Regards,
Sim085
 

Offline countzero

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Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2008, 10:29:31 AM »
No. It doesn't exist. A500/A600/A2000/CDTV are 68000 based designs with 16 bit data path. A1200/A4000/CD32 are 68020/68040 based designs with 32 bit data path. Also the 68k bus protocols are different AFAIK. Such an adapter will probably have equal or greater complexity than doing a A500 accelerator from scratch.

Now that I think about it, A3000 is a strange case scenario with a processor with 32 bit data path and 16 bit chipset (ECS). Probably there's some custom logic in there to interface the two.
I believe in mt. Fuji
 

Offline zipper

Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2008, 05:35:24 PM »
It would probably be easier to adapt A2000 accelerator to fit into A500 side expansion bus.
 

Offline pyrre

Re: My A500+ Project
« Reply #89 from previous page: August 19, 2008, 09:52:05 PM »
Quote
It would probably be easier to adapt A2000 accelerator to fit into A500 side expansion bus.


All you need is this and the micronik (or similar) tower....
Amiga 1200 Tower Os 3.9
BPPC 603e+ 040-25/200, 256MBram, BVIsionPPC, Indivision AGA MK2.
Amiga 2000 (rev 4.0) Os 1.2/1.3
2088 bridgeboard, 2MB ram card, 2091 SCSI.
Amiga 500+ Os 2.1
Derringer 030, 32MBram, Buddha in sidecar, Indivision ECS.
Amiga CD32
Video decoder