Wither Natami?

[the_leander]

amigadave wrote:

"So some folks want to live in the World that existed at Commodore's Death Nell Vigil (TM), whilst others want to modernise the hardware and run the 15 year old OS on modern equipment.  Still others want to take the concept of Amiga and ring it into the 21st Century."

Three visions of what the Amiga should be in the future.  Some of us only subscribe to one of the three, while others want two, or all three to be possible.

Why can't we all just get along and let each have their own vision of what the future will bring?

I get along with folk just fine for the most part, but understand, you have the resources now to maybe recreate Amithlon or build up from NatAmi and Minimig and relegate the Amiga to hobbyist or enthusiast status only. There simply isn't the capital to make the Amiga the Giant killer it should have been. Or, you can keep on wishing for giant killer status whilst forgetting what is available both now and in the immediate future.

The bitter irony, the terrible truth is, had BoXeR or NatAmi been available in 98, the Amiga community wouldn't have shrunk by the 90% it has in the years since. And again, it is a handful of people, not a giant multinational or even the crims who leased the IP that are behind it.

They say time is cyclical...

[the_leander]

A6000 wrote:

the_leander wrote:
NatAmi will be a commercial success, but not so much of a success in the Amiga community, indeed I would be surprised if the Amiga communty made up 10% of the sales of this device.

I'll explain my reasoning: The Amiga community, as nice as it is, is fractured, with a great many people having already blown large sums on their A1's and Pegasos.

I think the Natami will be of greater interest to "Amiga fundamentalists" rather than PPC users, people who have waited years for someone, anyone to produce a system that is true to the core concepts of the One True Amiga.

Which is precisely why I think it'll only sell to a small subset of the community.

A6000 wrote:
But the real benefit of the Natami is SuperAGA, which could be used in a new graphics card for big box Amigas.
It may be too expensive to buy the complete system, so, many people may be satisfied with a new SuperAGA graphics card to modernise the most obvious part of their Amiga computer, the video display.

Tbh the cost of making a zorro card and modifying AAA to work as a bus device rather then part of an intergrated system would probably make any such board about as expensive as just the NatAmi. I can see your point as to why it might be desirable to have it as an addon, but these systems are becomming increasingly fragile as time goes on, and unlike with the A500-3000 where the chipsets were socketed and there is the option of caniblising one from another, there just isn't the capacity to do that with the 600-1200 and 4000. Added to that the tiny numbers of surviving units and I just can't see that it would be financially viable.

But as a whole board, you open the possibility to sell it to much larger communities then this one. In all honesty, if they want to be able to keep making these and be able to flog em at a reasonable cost, marketing to the embedded and fpga specific developer communities is really the only logical option.

[the_leander]

bloodline wrote:
To prove Karlos wrong

See, this is where you failed - Karlos is a true genius, basically, if he says something is or isn't possible, take him at his word, whilst not infalable, this curry powered megabrain is right a damn sight more often then not  :-D  :lol:

[bloodline]

the_leander wrote:

bloodline wrote:
To prove Karlos wrong

See, this is where you failed - Karlos is a true genius, basically, if he says something is or isn't possible, take him at his word, whilst not infalable, this curry powered megabrain is right a damn sight more often then not  :-D  :lol:

Well, both our ideas would have worked, but his was much simpler... so I tried his idea first... and he was right, so I just conceded defeat :-D

[amigadave]

the_leander wrote:

I think you need to get your prescription checked - clearly we are reading different things.

My prescription is fine thank you, it is you who live in the fantasy world and interpret your surroundings through those colored glasses to the point where you cannot even consider another person's POV (probably inhibited due to your arrogance).  But I agree we are seeing two very different things in this thread.

It's called probability, backed up with a very sharp memory of what has happened to get us here. When the odds get big enough, the chances of something happening will eventually become so small as to effectively render them impossible for all intents and purposes.

...... But even then, it is far more likely that a C=One or that C= Joystick would be the resulting product rather then an Amiga Inspired Desktop killer OS. Which I might add, Bloodline has already correctly pointed out is a market that has already been won.

This explains your misguided statements. No one but a fool thinks that the Amiga is going to inspire a "Desktop killer OS" that will compete directly against Windows, or even the Mac.  No where have I stated or implied that idea and that is not what this thread is about.  It started out with a big argument about what is a "real" Amiga and what is not.  On that point I agreed for the most part with bloodline's POV and definition.

A new AmigaOS does not have to compete against Windows or the Mac to be a success, or fulfill the wants of most/many current Amiga users, former users and other computer users that are just sick and tired of Windows and too intimidated to deal with the remaining problems of Linux.  Maybe for you and bloodline a new AmigaOS must fit into a narrow description of specific rules to make it worthwhile.  I think it is you that are being the pricks in trying to talk down to everyone else that disagrees about what can and cannot be done and the way it has to be to make it worth any effort.

Just because you have some prior knowledge and experience with Amiga development and its failures, or setbacks in the past, does not make your opinions the only valid ones.

Wrong, by the very nature of the AmigaOS, understanding it's capabilities and its shorcommings, the fact that the market is changing means that the AmigaOS is becomming less and less relevant as a desktop OS, indeed, the concept of a desktop is beginning to change itself with the advent of the Netbook. With each of these changes in the market, the amount of work that would be required to shoehorn the AmigaOS into it increases exponentially. At some point, you have to accept that the Amiga has no place in the modern age beyond that of a hobbyist machine or even just as a toy.

"Understanding it's capabilities and ....." You are writing about the current AmigaOS' limitations as if any new work must be dependent on it and cannot free itself from the past.  I am writing about creating something new that is not limited by the past, but builds on the legacy items that can be saved without crippling the future.

Your argument, as Hans put so well and so briefly in his summary of Piru's side of the argument, is that it will take too long, cost too much, there are not enough resources to work on such a project, and it is not worth the effort because there are alternatives already available.

All valid points and they support your "probability" that there is a good chance nothing will happen, but ..... (see next point).

Linux was useful to more then Linus. If AmigaOS had been useful to others, it would already have been picked up by now.

My point that you have worked so hard to refute over and over again is that if a new AmigaOS (Amiga-Like) were created next year, or the year after that has advanced features and innovative ideas that are not available, or perhaps not possible in other OSes, perhaps due to their own legacy limitations, then that new AmigaOS would be "useful to more than Linus".

I understand that your argument about providing certain modern capabilities will break some of the very things that make any OS "Amiga-Like".  I get it!

All I have been trying to say this entire time is that hope for a better AmigaOS should not be abandoned just because the odds of anything improving are so very small and because we have only our past 10 years of failures and disappointments to look back on.

It would be much more productive for technically inclined Amiga users like yourselves to help find what can be done instead of repeating what cannot.

And yes, I am stepping up to put my money where my mouth is by looking for a PegasosII G4/1ghz to purchase and learning more about programming so I can help with several different projects.

I will enjoy my Classic Amiga collection (incl. my MiniMig & soon a NatAmi), actively work on the current "State of the Art" (IMHO) Amiga-Like system and prepare myself to help with creating or writing programs for a future OS which I hope will be both Open Source and Amiga-Like even if it is not named "AmigaOS".

It appears you assume you know what I, or other Amiga users want from a new AmigaOS.  You are wrong about me, and possibly others as well.

I've followed 2 major reimplimentations of OS's, AROS and Haiku. I have also seen the Refit of an OS, Zeta, which was based on the original BeOS code itself.

Haiku and Zeta took 7 years to get where they were, Zeta, even with the head start of having the code available, wasn't able to come up with an answer that realistically could survive in the current OS marketplace as anything other then a hobbiest system, Haiku, initiated as Be's ashes were still glowing, has taken since 2001 to get to early Alpha stage. AROS took even longer (though to be fair, there was a damn sight more work needed to get it to where it is today over Haiku).

Understanding how fast these projects take, one can reasonably extrapolate that with the same amount of funding, how long a project doing a similar thing, will take. It's not rocket science.

You can extrapolate.  Bullcr@p!

What amount of funding would that be?

What are the number of programmers that will be interested in working on this new project?

What code can be borrowed from and improved upon from the Open Source community?

I could go on and on with the number of variables that you could not have any knowledge of prior to the beginning of any new OS project, which makes your statement a joke.

Most Amiga users woke up around 2002-2003 and went to other platforms, I went to BeOS, later Zeta and Haiku, many went to linux, most went to Windows and Mac.

Oh well, they will be back if something sparks their interest.  Since I am not involved in this for profit, I don't care who else comes back or not.

It is not arrogance, it is realism, it is projections based on what has already happened, what is happening, and what is likely to happen, now if some mad fool comes up and sweeps away all the crap and builds "a new Amiga" with bucket loads of cash, then great, I'm wrong, you're right. But I really do not see any evidence of that happening. Do you have something to share with the group?

Only what I have already shared.  It only takes one great idea, not "bucket loads of cash" to start an avalanche of support, as my example of Linus Torvalds clearly shows.

The best you can hope for, is things like Minimig, like NatAmi, like Amithlon, like AROS.

I know sarcasm, being British, it's my bread and butter. I can even use it effectively, something, you have yet to have shown. Snide yes, sarcasm, no.

So not only are you going to dictate what we can hope for, you are going to boast about being the best at sarcasm.  Anything else?  Should I bow down now to your self proclaimed superiority? (I think NOT)

Arrogance: offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.

That seems to fit your tone exactly!  You are so full of yourself.

I'll be the judge of what's the best I can hope for.

[QuikSanz]

@ the_leander

I think your condescending remarks are rather uncalled for and a little bit more professionalism is in order.

Please be CIVIL.

PS: Don't be ticking off my neighbors.

Chris

[the_leander]

amigadave wrote:

the_leander wrote:

I think you need to get your prescription checked - clearly we are reading different things.

My prescription is fine thank you, it is you who live in the fantasy world and interpret your surroundings through those coloured glasses to the point where you cannot even consider another person's POV (probably inhibited due to your arrogance).  But I agree we are seeing two very different things in this thread.

Oh I'm sorry I must have missed the legions of developers and millions of dollars in VC investors that are just chomping at the bit to make your dream of making a whole new OS that just happens to have the name "Amiga" stamped on it.

Wait, whats that? There isn't any money? And there are maybe a handful of developers left that are remotely capable of such a task?

Oh.

amigadave wrote:

It's called probability, backed up with a very sharp memory of what has happened to get us here. When the odds get big enough, the chances of something happening will eventually become so small as to effectively render them impossible for all intents and purposes.

...... But even then, it is far more likely that a C=One or that C= Joystick would be the resulting product rather then an Amiga Inspired Desktop killer OS. Which I might add, Bloodline has already correctly pointed out is a market that has already been won.

This explains your misguided statements. No one but a fool thinks that the Amiga is going to inspire a "Desktop killer OS" that will compete directly against Windows, or even the Mac.  No where have I stated or implied that idea and that is not what this thread is about.  It started out with a big argument about what is a "real" Amiga and what is not.  On that point I agreed for the most part with bloodline's POV and definition.

Misguided? Pfft.

amigadave wrote:
A new AmigaOS does not have to compete against Windows or the Mac to be a success, or fulfil the wants of most/many current Amiga users, former users and other computer users that are just sick and tired of Windows and too intimidated to deal with the remaining problems of Linux.  Maybe for you and bloodline a new AmigaOS must fit into a narrow description of specific rules to make it worthwhile.  I think it is you that are being the pricks in trying to talk down to everyone else that disagrees about what can and cannot be done and the way it has to be to make it worth any effort.

So you leave yourself niche markets, what markets were you thinking of exactly? Just the community? Sorry, no dice, no one could make money out of what remains of the once huge Amiga community.

amigadave wrote:
Just because you have some prior knowledge and experience with Amiga development and its failures, or setbacks in the past, does not make your opinions the only valid ones.

It doesn't make them invalid either, nothing you have put in your post has shown my points either from an economic standpoint or developmental point to be invalid.

That you refuse to see that is not my concern.

amigadave wrote:

Wrong, by the very nature of the AmigaOS, understanding it's capabilities and its shortcomings, the fact that the market is changing means that the AmigaOS is becoming less and less relevant as a desktop OS, indeed, the concept of a desktop is beginning to change itself with the advent of the Netbook. With each of these changes in the market, the amount of work that would be required to shoehorn the AmigaOS into it increases exponentially. At some point, you have to accept that the Amiga has no place in the modern age beyond that of a hobbyist machine or even just as a toy.

"Understanding it's capabilities and ....." You are writing about the current AmigaOS' limitations as if any new work must be dependent on it and cannot free itself from the past.  I am writing about creating something new that is not limited by the past, but builds on the legacy items that can be saved without crippling the future.

So, you want a whole new OS, from scratch, just so you can stick the name "Amiga" on it.

I'll go with Bloodline on this: Do it yourself. Put your money, blood sweat and tears where your mouth is instead of having a pop at people who actually know what they're talking about.

amigadave wrote:
Your argument, as Hans put so well and so briefly in his summary of Piru's side of the argument, is that it will take too long, cost too much, there are not enough resources to work on such a project, and it is not worth the effort because there are alternatives already available.

You're damn right there are alternatives available.

This is what I don't get about the community, what I never understood, that someone could take a pre existing OS, slap the name Amiga on it and you folk would cheer like it's the second coming (TAO). But point you at Haiku or AROS and you don't so much as bat an eyelid.

As for your dismissal of Piru's points, well, that said it all for me, I mean, afterall what on earth could someone who has actually been neck deep in an OS for the past 7 years, whose API's are identical to the one you use know about an OS, yes, lets listen to the guy who has done sweet FA in terms of OS development instead! He clearly knows what he's talking about...

Just because you don't like the answer does not make the person arrogant or invalid!

amigadave wrote:
All valid points and they support your "probability" that there is a good chance nothing will happen, but ..... (see next point).

Linux was useful to more then Linus. If AmigaOS had been useful to others, it would already have been picked up by now.

My point that you have worked so hard to refute over and over again is that if a new AmigaOS (Amiga-Like) were created next year, or the year after that has advanced features and innovative ideas that are not available, or perhaps not possible in other OSes, perhaps due to their own legacy limitations, then that new AmigaOS would be "useful to more than Linus".

Right, because of what, exactly? The name Amiga? Newsflash, the name is a joke synonymous with failure and more recently, with dodgy dealings.

Even before the legal issues YellowTab, the producers of Zeta were in trouble, serious financial trouble, they had a modern, scalable fully functional OS based on the superb BeOS. If you enter the desktop market you will fail. Further, unlike with Zeta, which had a reasonable back catalogue of software, your supposed Next-Gen AmigaOS will have sod all.

BeOS, Zeta, neither of them could gain traction and they were about as advanced as any OS out there, more so in many respects then the major players and an order or two of magnitude more capable then AmigaOS and it had a rolling start with the aid of the BeOS back catalogue.

amigadave wrote:
I understand that your argument about providing certain modern capabilities will break some of the very things that make any OS "Amiga-Like".  I get it!

No, you really don't, it won't break the things that make it Amiga-like (as has been pointed out already, there are modern OS's out there that are amigalike and have capabilities far and away superior to the AmigaOS - Haiku being a prime example), it'll completely destroy backward compatibility with about the only thing that AmigaOS has any value left in - it's software catalogue.

Linux was useful because it allowed people like you and me to use a UNIX type environment without having to be butt raped by IBM, Novell or Sun for the privilage. It also put UNIX styled OS's onto the desktop - something that was considered to be a bad thing by the above companies. It was the right tool, at the right time. Something that seems to have escaped your understanding, despite it having been repeatedly pointed out to you.

amigadave wrote:
All I have been trying to say this entire time is that hope for a better AmigaOS should not be abandoned just because the odds of anything improving are so very small and because we have only our past 10 years of failures and disappointments to look back on.

You misspelled False hope.

I'm not saying AmigaOS should be abandoned, I'm saying that trying to make a "next gen" OS whose only claim is that it holds the name "Amiga" and calling it an Amiga would be no different then simply taking the AROS or Haiku code and slapping the name on that!

I'm saying that if Amiga is to survive, it will be through emulation both hardware and software. I'll be through things like the UAE, Minimig and NatAmi, it won't be through investing millions (in terms of both money and man hours) on yet another niche OS.

amigadave wrote:
It would be much more productive for technically inclined Amiga users like yourselves to help find what can be done instead of repeating what cannot.

Already done, and for that I have been accused of being arrogant.

I told you what is on the table. If you don't like it, do something about it.

amigadave wrote:
And yes, I am stepping up to put my money where my mouth is by looking for a PegasosII G4/1ghz to purchase and learning more about programming so I can help with several different projects.

May I suggest getting an Efika, given that they're still being produced and all.

amigadave wrote:
I will enjoy my Classic Amiga collection (incl. my MiniMig & soon a NatAmi), actively work on the current "State of the Art" (IMHO) Amiga-Like system and prepare myself to help with creating or writing programs for a future OS which I hope will be both Open Source and Amiga-Like even if it is not named "AmigaOS".

Haiku and AROS fit this bill quite nicely. You should have a look at them.

amigadave wrote:
It appears you assume you know what I, or other Amiga users want from a new AmigaOS.  You are wrong about me, and possibly others as well.

Really, no I think I have you bang to rights. What you want is not attainable. It hasn't been for a decade.

amigadave wrote:

I've followed 2 major reimplimentations of OS's, AROS and Haiku. I have also seen the Refit of an OS, Zeta, which was based on the original BeOS code itself.

Haiku and Zeta took 7 years to get where they were, Zeta, even with the head start of having the code available, wasn't able to come up with an answer that realistically could survive in the current OS marketplace as anything other then a hobbiest system, Haiku, initiated as Be's ashes were still glowing, has taken since 2001 to get to early Alpha stage. AROS took even longer (though to be fair, there was a damn sight more work needed to get it to where it is today over Haiku).

Understanding how fast these projects take, one can reasonably extrapolate that with the same amount of funding, how long a project doing a similar thing, will take. It's not rocket science.

Most Amiga users woke up around 2002-2003 and went to other platforms, I went to BeOS, later Zeta and Haiku, many went to Linux, most went to Windows and Mac.

It is not arrogance, it is realism, it is projections based on what has already happened, what is happening, and what is likely to happen, now if some mad fool comes up and sweeps away all the crap and builds "a new Amiga" with bucket loads of cash, then great, I'm wrong, you're right. But I really do not see any evidence of that happening. Do you have something to share with the group?

The best you can hope for, is things like Minimig, like NatAmi, like Amithlon, like AROS.

I know sarcasm, being British, it's my bread and butter. I can even use it effectively, something, you have yet to have shown. Snide yes, sarcasm, no.

Arrogance: offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.

Pride? In myself? Dear gods you really have no clue who you're talking to do you? LAWL!

By the way, there is a difference between arrogance (which assumes I'm in error) and being correct and you not liking the answer.

You should think on that.

amigadave wrote:
That seems to fit your tone exactly!  You are so full of yourself.

I'll be the judge of what's the best I can hope for.

I'll await AMigaDaveOS development news with baited breath. Promise!

Or, you can continue false hope in a second coming and you'll eventually either end up like Athiest and a short step away from a nut house, or you'll have to face crushing disappointment when you realise all your energy was wasted.

Remember, the longer you leave it, the greater the pain.

[the_leander]

QuikSanz wrote:
@ the_leander

I think your condescending remarks are rather uncalled for and a little bit more professionalism is in order.

Really? Well bully for you! I think a wake up call to people living in a dream world is in order myself, sadly, breaking someones dreams is not a pleasant process, the flip side is though, that going through the crushing realisation yourself alone is far, far worse.

Condecending and Arrogant eh? Damn I'm going to have a whole dictionarys worth of insults thrown at me before the end of the week at this rate.

And all from whiney septics from CA.

Interesting that.

QuikSanz wrote:
Please be CIVIL.

I haven't been uncivil yet.

I haven't even begun to be uncivil.

I can show you uncivil if you like?  :evilgrin:

QuikSanz wrote:
PS: Don't be ticking off my neighbors.

Chris

That a threat?

Quaking here man, hey, guys, this random person on this website I've been visiting for the past 6 years just threatened me!

...  :roll:

[asymetrix]

>running a search-replace on the entire source tree.

Could this code  for a memory leak detector be modified to be used to trap functions etc ?

Especially the logging feature, lower down the page , logging commands and changing them ?

This could act like a search replace

http://angelheart.obxhost.net/leakdetector.htm

Someone knowledgeable make use of it ?

[amigadave]

In your shoes, I would not be proud of myself either.

Get your quotes right, I never wrote the statements you are quoting.

[the_leander]

amigadave wrote:
In your shoes, I would not be proud of myself either.

Snide.

amigadave wrote:
Get your quotes right, I never wrote the statements you are quoting.

Editing your posts after the fact is not good form chum.

I hit the quote button at the bottom of the post page. You wrote what was quoted.

[QuikSanz]

@ the_leander

I was the one that wrote "please be civil".
I also wrote "Don't Be Ticking off my neighbors"

Unfortunately You are confused. You should never respond in anger. So, OK what is your beef in general? Most folks in EU don't trash like you.

 I can maybe speak for some people that our existing stuff won't last forever. What do we do when that time comes along?

I have a PC for new games but it's no Amiga.

Chris

[amigadave]

QuikSanz wrote:
@ the_leander

I was the one that wrote "please be civil".
I also wrote "Don't Be Ticking off my neighbors"

Unfortunately You are confused. You should never respond in anger. So, OK what is your beef in general? Most folks in EU don't trash like you.

 I can maybe speak for some people that our existing stuff won't last forever. What do we do when that time comes along?

I have a PC for new games but it's no Amiga.

Chris

Don't bother correcting him, he is always right and correct, haven't you read his posts?

[QuikSanz]

@amigadave,

Yeh, Trolls, Whats a person to do? Forget about it.

Chris

[amigadave]

QuikSanz wrote:
@amigadave,

Yeh, Trolls, Whats a person to do? Forget about it.

Chris

Yeah, I am done with that lying, waste of time, fool that can't even get his facts straight.

It is a joke that he thinks he is here to save all our poor souls from our wayward path. :lol:

If he had read any of my other 1650+ posts here on these forums, he would know that I am not one of the blind zealots of the Amiga community, but he has a burr up his arse and won't get up to dig it out and pull his head out with it.

[the_leander]

QuikSanz wrote:
@ the_leander

I was the one that wrote "please be civil".
I also wrote "Don't Be Ticking off my neighbors"

Fixed, and my apologies, apparently I didn't hit ctrl c quite hard enough.

QuikSanz wrote:
Unfortunately You are confused. You should never respond in anger. So, OK what is your beef in general? Most folks in EU don't trash like you.

I am Britsh, not European.

I'm also not angry, just saddened at the complete lack of understanding, or rather, wilful ignorance of some.

Here you have in this thread, posts by one of the best coders in the Amiga community, one of the most respected developers of AROS - Piru.

And he is being dismissed like an errant child because his answers aren't the ones some folk want to hear.

What's worse though, is that you have AROS, which is for all intents and purposes, a next generation AmigaOS in both form and function, it's good to go today. And it is being ignored utterly in favour of making, from scratch a whole new OS that'll have "Amiga" stamped on it.

I can't even begin to imagine what AROS developers reading things like that feel - to see their hard work dismissed by people solely because it has the wrong name. Or to be called lazy because it offers the option of running hosted in Linux.

This community really is retarded at times - it has had the answer sat there for yonks, ready to step into the fore, and no one wants it, the terrible thing is it'll be the same for the NatAmi for the most part too...

QuikSanz wrote:
 I can maybe speak for some people that our existing stuff won't last forever. What do we do when that time comes along?

I've already said, several times now what the future is for the Amiga as it stands: UAE, Amithlon (or something that follows the same principles, maybe a hosted derivative of AROS), NatAmi or Minimig.

I've stated that it is however unlikely, given the fractured nature of the community that any product will survive on the meagre earnings that are likely to be had from this community - most, like Hans, have paid up for their dead end systems and are either unwilling or unable to fork up for something else.

I've stated that the NatAmi could well end up being a big hit with developers of fpgas, same goes for Minimig, and if marketed to those groups will likely become commercial successes ensuring their survival, which in turn, is good for users of original equipment looking for a replacement.

But I feel the community as a whole I think will ignore it, just like they have with AROS.

QuikSanz wrote:
I have a PC for new games but it's no Amiga.

Chris

Honest to goodness, look on ebay for Amithlon. If you can, get it.

You seriously will not regret it. You thought an A1 was fast, try an Amithlon equipped PC, it'll feel just like the real thing, only faster then greased lightning. It'll also offer better compatability with older software since it'll be running a 3.x series OS rather then 4.0.

Failing that, ask someone who has a copy, or can get copies in private if they can run a copy off for you.

That, or have a look at Elive. Yes, it's linux, but it really is a sight to behold and use, by far the slickest OS I have ever come across, and I've used a few. Better then Ubuntu imho, fast even on (seriously) old hardware.