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Offline the_leander

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #179 on: August 07, 2008, 04:56:33 PM »
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bloodline wrote:

The problem is that every day tasks, mundane tasks... casual computing tasks can now be handled by a small battery powered device that I can hold in my hand! I only switch my main machines to do specific work.


Same goes with me with an EeePC using a hsdpa modem. I'd consider something smaller if I thought for a second I could type with it and not get cramp though :-)

The only difference is I can litterally do everything I need bar gaming on this thing, not just the mundane stuff.

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bloodline wrote:

The space the Amiga occupied has gone. In fact, up until I used the iPhone, I still had hope that the Amiga could find a place... but now, technology has moved on, the way we can use machines has changed. The world is a different place :-)


For me using BeOS, as limiting as it was (in terms of software) brought me to the same conclusion, later using Elive linux erased any lingering doubt, truly, it was the most elegant and easy to use system I've ever had the pleasure of running.

I still have a place in my heart for the amiga, it was the system that first really introduced me to what a computer could do, it was the first computer I had that got me online, brought me here, and up until 2003, was my only computer type.

Something like the NatAmi, or even an Amithlon type setup would be cool, purely from the point of a desire to play old games.

But to try to drag it into the modern day rather then celebrate its heyday through things like NatAmi, is just plain wrong at this stage. The last hope for a resurection was back in 98/99, when 3.5 came out. Don't believe me? Take a look at the software released for the Amiga that year, of the hardware being released. There was, for that brief moment in time a real hope again, a feeling that things were moving forward, yet only 2 years later, all that had stalled, the release, of the AmigaOne was delayed, the single biggest hardware producer in the community at the time (Phase 5) croaked. Key software producers were winding down and moving to other platforms. Yes, both the A1 came out, as well as OS4, but both were poor in terms of quality and years overdue.

Amigadave I am by no measure immature, I don't use words or phrases lightly, if I say something it is because I've generally researched it and am sure of my ground. Yes, great, people would like to see a modern Amiga-like OS out, but truthfully, there already are - both AROS and Haiku fit that bill quite nicely. The main problem people here have with this seems to me to be the fact that neither have the Amiga name attached to them. Building a complete new OS from the bottom up, with only a nod to the original API's (since most of them would not be workable within a modern OS) just so you can have the Amiga name plastered over it is genuinely a waste of developers time. There are better, more elegant solutions out there and developers know it.

I take no pleasure in accepting that the Amiga no longer has a place outside of a hobbyists or retro scene, indeed when I sat down and began to make plans to switch from the Amiga to BeOS, it was a very long and painful thing, I'd spent at that time over a decade learning every tip and trick to getting the most out of these obscure little machines, I had one of the single most patched/hacked/kludged systems going in terms of my 1200 both in software and hardware, there was little I couldn't tell you about any patch you cared to mention on aminet. But as I said, false hope always leads to bitter dissapointment, my wakeup call was seeing the abortion that was the AmigaOne role out, obscenely overpriced, without an OS and no real timeframe of getting one. I spent the exact same money for a complete, self built PC as just the board would have cost me, running BeOS and running a damn sight faster.

Linux came later. Elive being my final stop in the desktop before getting the EeePC and never looking back.
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Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #180 on: August 07, 2008, 05:23:57 PM »
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bloodline wrote:

Hans... no offence meant here, but have you ever done any Amiga development at all? I ask because the questions you are asking show a real lack of knowledge with AmigaOS... If you want to find out more about how AmigaOS works, just have a look over the AROS source code it would give you a much clearer idea of the scale of the problem!


How do the questions that I'm asking give the impression that I don't know anything about Amiga OS? I don't see how discussing some of the specific internals demonstrates a complete lack of understanding ... no offence meant of-course. ;-)

FYI, yes I have done Amiga development, and I do know a thing or two about how Amiga OS works. Obviously my knowledge is not as extensive as someone that has actually worked on the OS itself, but I do understand the message passing system, devices, libraries, etc.

Hans
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Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #181 on: August 07, 2008, 05:32:13 PM »
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HenryCase wrote:
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bloodline wrote:
That was a legitimate question


Maybe, but what did you intend to achieve by asking it?

I don't see it as a legitimate or useful question actually. I find it hard to see how what I wrote demonstrates a complete lack of understanding. The question serves only to question my intelligence and understanding and does nothing to debate the actual issues. It's just part of the negative rhetoric along with comments such as "... silly pipe-dreams ..." Bloodline often has a mocking tone in his posts which you'll just have to get used to.

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bloodline wrote:
What "OpenGL stuff"?


Adding functions/features to TinyGL.


Correction, I'm extending MiniGL. I have worked on other stuff, but none of that is released yet (and some of it is discontinued).

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bloodline wrote:
if you read what is left of the specs, you can see it was an odd system... probably even less compatible with the all pervasive POSIX than what we have now...


Not everyone sees POSIX as a good thing. Seems to me the more you strive for total POSIX compatibility the more you turn your OS into a UNIX variant. As long as apps aren't super difficult to port why care about POSIX?

Like it or not POSIX is now an official standard and a lot of code has been written that uses it. Any new system that ignores POSIX is doomed.

Hans
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Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #182 on: August 07, 2008, 05:51:43 PM »
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Piru wrote:
@Hans_
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Could you please provide a solid example so that I understand what the problem is?

selib.c

Constructs such as this are extremely common, and WILL die horribly with MP.


Thanks for the example.

Looking at it quickly, you have a global list containing nodes from every library user. One option would be to make the list a per-library open item. This would require the addition of a single keyword. Another option would be to leave it in shared memory, which you obviously wouldn't like, and probably wouldn't be necessary. I still think that the bulk of most library source-code wouldn't be affected.

The libraries that I can think of that really do require common internal state variables would be things such as the bsdsocket library which is part of the TCP/IP networking stack. An MP environment would require the library to pass messages to the TCP/IP process for almost everything, if this isn't how it's done already.

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I don't think that a manual check would be needed for every occurrence.

Why not?


Because everything that fits into an int32 fits into an int64. Specific sizings usually relate to hardware interfacing and really low-level stuff. Also note that a 64-bit version of AROS already exists.
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Offline Piru

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #183 on: August 07, 2008, 06:44:58 PM »
@Hans_
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Looking at it quickly, you have a global list containing nodes from every library user.

Not quite. There can be any number of them per caller.
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One option would be to make the list a per-library open item. This would require the addition of a single keyword.

How would that fix it exactly?
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I still think that the bulk of most library source-code wouldn't be affected.

Well I disagree. This is just one example of how resources allocated by any function can totally screw it up in MP environment. Many libraries allocate resources in the functions that are somehow referenced by the other library openers.
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Because everything that fits into an int32 fits into an int64. Specific sizings usually relate to hardware interfacing and really low-level stuff.

That'd break many more things than you think, for example files read from/written to disk, network or any other medium. You can't just do global search and replace like that, it'd b0rk horribly. Another suckage from this would be the needless extra memory consumption. It'd also suck to have every other 32bits "unused", esp for caches.
 

Offline HenryCase

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #184 on: August 07, 2008, 06:47:45 PM »
@the_leander
Thanks for the BeOS/Haiku information. I liked Haiku before, but now I have even more reason to like it!

@Piru
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Piru wrote:
No


The reasons these topics tend to go around and around is useless answers like this. Ok, you say no to CAOS functions, I say why? You have to explain your point of view for me to take it seriously.

@bloodline
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Your reaction to the question is far more interesting than either my question or Hans's answer could ever be!

I was interested in what experience Hans had, so that I could answer his questions better, perhaps he has experince in VxWorks... I don't know, but his questions were not those of someone who has spent many a bored evening messing around with an Assembler trying to get stuff to work...

You rection though, immediately makes me think there is far more to this than you are letting on, and not a good way. Someone is bullsh1ting us here!


Why would you believe someone is bullsh1tting you? Bloodline, from conversations I've had with you in the past I know you can be a helpful guy, but let's face it, you were not going to help anyone by asking if Hans_ had ever programmed for AmigaOS before (comments like that just make you seem like your looking to put people down, though you may not have meant it this way). If you wanted to him see your point of view you would have given him an example of why his ideas wouldn't work with AmigaOS, just like you had helpfully done when I was talking up MP stuff.

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bloodline wrote:
Bug fixing a library that is not native to the Amiga is hardly a way to learn about the internals of AmigaOS.


I don't claim to be Hans' biographer, I was just giving you an example of Amiga programming he has done.

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It couldn't be finished. It wasn't possible to get it done in the time frame/budget that Commodore had, to get the Amiga out in time. If they had stuck with it and the project had rolled on for 2 more years... too much money would have been spent, and every other computer company would have had a chance to make something better. The Amiga would have failed before it even left the stable.


Granted, it is quicker to adapt an existing OS like Tripos than start from scratch. If the CAOS developers hadn't wasted time during the development process they may have had time to get it done for the A1000 launch, who knows. We are not working to those same time restrictions, and I doubt there would be much resistance in the Amiga community to the idea of resuscitating CAOS. So exec is the same in CAOS and AmigaOS, and other functions are similar, we don't have to throw everything away to get the job done do we?

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bloodline wrote:
99% of all free software is POSIX, and a new operating system needs free software to be in any way useful.


How hard is it to port a POSIX compatible app to a non-POSIX OS, in terms of libraries missing and other needed infrastructure?

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bloodline wrote:
AmigaOS is what it is. If you want to make a new OS go right ahead. But I like our little dinosaur.


I think this is the core of why these discussions get you (and others) worked up. In my opinion we are not defiling the memories of AmigaOS by discussing new ways we can take our OS's. The classic AmigaOS architecture will always be what it is, but new Amiga compatible OS's can take the OS in new and interesting directions. Why not look at what all of those possible directions are? You don't have to hate the new to preserve the fondness for the old.

@Hans_
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Hans_ wrote:
Correction, I'm extending MiniGL. I have worked on other stuff, but none of that is released yet (and some of it is discontinued).


Thanks for the correction.

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Hans_ wrote:
Like it or not POSIX is now an official standard and a lot of code has been written that uses it. Any new system that ignores POSIX is doomed.


I'd still personally resist a 'one size fits all' computing world even if there were significant drawbacks. Got to give the world a true alternative to POSIX one day IMO.
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Offline Piru

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #185 on: August 07, 2008, 06:50:56 PM »
@HenryCase

If you think about it for a second you realize CAOS is totally different from current amigaos. Thus, if you'd replace parts of the amigaos with CAOS, nothing would work anymore. Thus, No, it would not help at all.

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How hard is it to port a POSIX compatible app to a non-POSIX OS, in terms of libraries missing and other needed infrastructure?

Depending on which missing functions are used, pretty hard to totally impossible.

{EDIT] Well, nothing is impossible, but if you need to rewrite most of the code then I'd say "porting" didn't happen :-) [/EDIT]
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #186 on: August 07, 2008, 06:56:53 PM »
Quote

Piru wrote:
@Hans_
Quote
Looking at it quickly, you have a global list containing nodes from every library user.

Not quite. There can be any number of them per caller.


Containing nodes from every library user includes multiple nodes per caller.

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One option would be to make the list a per-library open item. This would require the addition of a single keyword.

How would that fix it exactly?


It would be a local list sitting within the caller's memory space. I'm assuming that you're not trying to use the library for inter-task communications here.

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I still think that the bulk of most library source-code wouldn't be affected.

Well I disagree. This is just one example of how resources allocated by any function can totally screw it up in MP environment. Many libraries allocate resources in the functions that are somehow referenced by the other library openers.

And how many of those would actually require the other tasks to reference resources not allocated by them?

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Because everything that fits into an int32 fits into an int64. Specific sizings usually relate to hardware interfacing and really low-level stuff.

That'd break many more things than you think, for example files read from/written to disk, network or any other medium. You can't just do global search and replace like that, it'd b0rk horribly. Another suckage from this would be the needless extra memory consumption. It'd also suck to have every other 32bits "unused", esp for caches.


Fair enough. Note, I did not suggest just running a search-replace on the entire source tree.

Hans
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Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #187 on: August 07, 2008, 07:08:23 PM »
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Quote
Hans_ wrote:
Like it or not POSIX is now an official standard and a lot of code has been written that uses it. Any new system that ignores POSIX is doomed.


I'd still personally resist a 'one size fits all' computing world even if there were significant drawbacks. Got to give the world a true alternative to POSIX one day IMO.


There are alternatives, but almost no-one uses them. Developers like standards because it allows them to reuse code on multiple systems. This is why everyone uses the SCSI or IDE standards for drive interfacing; why ATAPI for IDE is based on the SCSI protocol; why SATA is based on ATA, etc. It's also why Warp3D Nova won't be created; instead OpenGL will be the 3D API.

I'd be fine with ignoring POSIX compliance if there were some clear advantages to it. For desktop computing, there are none (that I can think of). Besides, POSIX compliance can mean that there is simply a POSIX API wrapper sitting on top of the OS' API. That's the way that POSIX thread works on Amiga OS for example (and Windows).

Windows is fully POSIX compliant, MacOSX is fully POSIX compliant, as are a whole range of other OSes. Surprizingly, Linux is listed as being mostly POSIX compliant (not fully).

Hans
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Offline Piru

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #188 on: August 07, 2008, 07:35:08 PM »
@Hans_
Quote
I'm assuming that you're not trying to use the library for inter-task communications here.

I am not. Lets just assume the library needs to access the other nodes for some reason. Even though you seem to have missed such constructs, they are common in real life, indeed. My example has just some dummy code that illustrates the problem.

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And how many of those would actually require the other tasks to reference resources not allocated by them?

I can't see how it could be avoided really. These libraries really need to access the structures allocated by other callers.
 

Offline the_leander

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #189 on: August 07, 2008, 07:36:20 PM »
Quote

Piru wrote:
@HenryCase

If you think about it for a second you realize CAOS is totally different from current amigaos. Thus, if you'd replace parts of the amigaos with CAOS, nothing would work anymore. Thus, No, it would not help at all.

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How hard is it to port a POSIX compatible app to a non-POSIX OS, in terms of libraries missing and other needed infrastructure?

Depending on which missing functions are missing, pretty hard to totally impossible.


Careful Piru, you don't want to be branded immature by amigadave for using mean words like impossible now, do you?  :roll:  :crazy:  :lol:
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Offline Piru

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #190 on: August 07, 2008, 07:43:57 PM »
:-)
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #191 on: August 07, 2008, 07:58:26 PM »
Quote

Piru wrote:
@Hans_
Quote
I'm assuming that you're not trying to use the library for inter-task communications here.

I am not. Lets just assume the library needs to access the other nodes for some reason. Even though you seem to have missed such constructs, they are common in real life, indeed. My example has just some dummy code that illustrates the problem.


I see no problem in your example code. You said that basically the whole shared library method would have to be discarded due to memory sharing issues. I see nothing in your example code that supports that.

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And how many of those would actually require the other tasks to reference resources not allocated by them?

I can't see how it could be avoided really. These libraries really need to access the structures allocated by other callers.[/quote]
You didn't answer the question, and simply saying that it is necessary doesn't help. I need a solid example why a library would need to allow multiple callers to access structures allocated by the other.

Hans
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Offline quarkx

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #192 on: August 07, 2008, 08:00:32 PM »
Ok, even though I am new here, I wanted to drop a few comments from a "New" Amiga user on this subject.
Fist, I have been trying "different" emulators of vintage computers for years, and they all lack from a newbies point of view. You have to have all these tutorials open and even then you really can't do anything.With "real" hardware, you hook up and go, no problems, no "mounting" nothing. Example: The first thing I did was buy "Amiga Forever". I can boot it from the CD on my $7000 Voodoo laptop, get into workbench and then DO NOTHING!, the Amiga software on my hard drive is not recognizable. I can't access my CD Drives, absolutely nothing past the workbench screen. Now, I have to go and hunt down websites with tutorials on how to get it to see my drives, etc.- Biggest pain in the butt. I don't have time to mess around with it all.
OTOH, I plug my A500 into the tv. Insert the workbench disk, after that, I can put in any disk and actually do something, Play a game, write a spreadsheet, you name it. No configuring.Boot and go!
That is why "real" hardware will win out any day over emulation.
Second, some people HATE -and I mean DESPISE Linux or any form of it Period! If you want to impress these people, write an NEW OS that has NOTHING do do with Linux. People who write on top of Linux for other "OS" are just plain lazy and can't create something on their own- not my thoughts but general view of the anti-Linux community. (THERE I SAID IT FLAME AWAY ).
 :crazy:

I see the projects like mining and such as a step in the right direction, but until they can just "plug in and go" without having to hunt down every single little thing to make it work, it won't have the respect it deserves. The answers to why won't it read floppies, "oh , thats coming" is not acceptable. Natami looks promising, but if it is not Plug and play than it will never get the respect.It must be a full, working, system when its released.

Anyway's, thats just a newbies point of view. Of course I don't have the knowledge of some of you on the subject, and I apologize in advance for my naivety.
I have Amiga stuff for sale at http://amigalounge.com. You can follow my builds there also.
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #193 on: August 07, 2008, 08:14:23 PM »
@QuarkX

You've obviously never had to install Windows from scratch.  If you don't have the rescue CD from the manufacturer or are building a machine from the motherboard up, you have to hunt down drivers for everything but the install CD.

I'll admit not having a CD driver in the Kickstart is kind of a pain but when the Kickstart 3.1 was made there were no CD-ROM drives.  People still used floppy-disks for everything.  The Amiga could fit more on one medium density floppy than the PC could because of special formatting.  That's why a PC can't easily read an 880k Amiga floppy disk.

The Natami will have CD-ROM and USB storage support in the Kickstart but, in order to do this, it will need to install a patch every time the Kickstart is re-flashed.  Furthermore, if you buy a Natami as a complete system everything will be preinstalled when you get it.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #194 from previous page: August 07, 2008, 08:20:04 PM »
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You said that basically the whole shared library method would have to be discarded due to memory sharing issues.

And my example only provided one reason for it.

Others include the problem the fact that you'd need to have different library base per caller. Something that doesn't work with many libraries.
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I need a solid example why a library would need to allow multiple callers to access structures allocated by the other.

diskfont.library, dos.library, asl.library, locale.library, rexxsyslib.library, realtime.library, commodities.library, datatypes.library, card.resource, timer.device, keyboard.device, trackdisk.device, graphics.library, intuition.library, layers.library, gadtools.library, exec.library, utility.library at least.

Of 3rd party libs reqtools, xadmaster, xfdmaster, openurl, muimaster, ixemul at least.