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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #164 on: August 07, 2008, 11:53:56 AM »
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
You have a sharp sword Bloodline. It looks grim the way you present the situation.  But, can you see a way to adapt AROS to take advantage of multi core processors??


Yes, actually... This is an Area that Kal and Michal S on AROS-Exec.org can disscuss better :-)

I find concurrency issues very complex and it takes me a while to get my head around. In short it is possible, but the design of AmigaOS (and thus AROS) is not really very suited to SMP...

Offline cicero790

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #165 on: August 07, 2008, 12:26:21 PM »
Thats brilliant news. There could be a NEXT GEN. The possibility is there. Thats great! :-)
A1200 030 40MHz: 2/32MB Indivision AGA MkII
A600 7 MHz: 2MB
AROS 600 MHz
PC 13600 MHz: quad core i7 2600K 3.4GHz: 16GB RAM: ATI HD6950 2GB   (Yes I know)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #166 on: August 07, 2008, 12:35:55 PM »
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Thats brilliant news. There could be a NEXT GEN. The possibility is there. Thats great! :-)


Yes, but an OS based on AmigaOS is never going to be as good at using modern hardware as a modern OS design.

I'm not really sure why there is this real need for a "Next Gen" anymore. I think that time has passed. We now need ot focus on what AmigaOS does well.

Offline cicero790

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #167 on: August 07, 2008, 12:49:12 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Thats brilliant news. There could be a NEXT GEN. The possibility is there. Thats great! :-)


Yes, but an OS based on AmigaOS is never going to be as good at using modern hardware as a modern OS design.

I'm not really sure why there is this real need for a "Next Gen" anymore. I think that time has passed. We now need ot focus on what AmigaOS does well.


O.k O.k O.k, But when you say that there is a possibility for a multi core version, thats a Quantum leap in my book.
A1200 030 40MHz: 2/32MB Indivision AGA MkII
A600 7 MHz: 2MB
AROS 600 MHz
PC 13600 MHz: quad core i7 2600K 3.4GHz: 16GB RAM: ATI HD6950 2GB   (Yes I know)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #168 on: August 07, 2008, 01:01:41 PM »
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Thats brilliant news. There could be a NEXT GEN. The possibility is there. Thats great! :-)


Yes, but an OS based on AmigaOS is never going to be as good at using modern hardware as a modern OS design.

I'm not really sure why there is this real need for a "Next Gen" anymore. I think that time has passed. We now need ot focus on what AmigaOS does well.


O.k O.k O.k, But when you say that there is a possibility for a multi core version, thats a Quantum leap in my book.


Far more of a leap in my mind, was the move of AROS from 32bit to 64bit... that required a significant amount of work and bugs are still showing up. AmigaOS was never meant to run on a 64bit system.

But even if AROS can use multiple cores... it simply cannot use multiple cores as efficently as well... any orther OS :-)

Offline cicero790

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #169 on: August 07, 2008, 01:18:55 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Thats brilliant news. There could be a NEXT GEN. The possibility is there. Thats great!


Yes, but an OS based on AmigaOS is never going to be as good at using modern hardware as a modern OS design.

I'm not really sure why there is this real need for a "Next Gen" anymore. I think that time has passed. We now need ot focus on what AmigaOS does well.


O.k O.k O.k, But when you say that there is a possibility for a multi core version, thats a Quantum leap in my book.


Far more of a leap in my mind, was the move of AROS from 32bit to 64bit... that required a significant amount of work and bugs are still showing up. AmigaOS was never meant to run on a 64bit system.

But even if AROS can use multiple cores... it simply cannot use multiple cores as efficently as well... any orther OS :-)


"any other OS..." I like that. You are pretty hard on AROS and if I understand you are deeply involved in it so that makes you pretty hard on you self.

There will probably be a way around it. Perhaps something shows up with the singularity project as you said, that could be used in some smart way, the AMIGA way. As an enthusiast that my hope. :-)
A1200 030 40MHz: 2/32MB Indivision AGA MkII
A600 7 MHz: 2MB
AROS 600 MHz
PC 13600 MHz: quad core i7 2600K 3.4GHz: 16GB RAM: ATI HD6950 2GB   (Yes I know)

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Offline amigadave

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #170 on: August 07, 2008, 01:34:56 PM »
I just love all these absolutes that keep showing up in this thread. "...never as well as other OSes..."  "....never meant for 64bit...."  "....I live in reality and you don't..."

IMHO people that speak/write in absolutes are just immature and have not been around long enough to see that anything is possible in time and things are not always the way they seem.

Ever hear of the saying "Never say never".
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #171 on: August 07, 2008, 01:37:21 PM »
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Thats brilliant news. There could be a NEXT GEN. The possibility is there. Thats great!


Yes, but an OS based on AmigaOS is never going to be as good at using modern hardware as a modern OS design.

I'm not really sure why there is this real need for a "Next Gen" anymore. I think that time has passed. We now need ot focus on what AmigaOS does well.


O.k O.k O.k, But when you say that there is a possibility for a multi core version, thats a Quantum leap in my book.


Far more of a leap in my mind, was the move of AROS from 32bit to 64bit... that required a significant amount of work and bugs are still showing up. AmigaOS was never meant to run on a 64bit system.

But even if AROS can use multiple cores... it simply cannot use multiple cores as efficently as well... any orther OS :-)


"any other OS..." I like that. You are pretty hard on AROS and if I understand you are deeply involved in it so that makes you pretty hard on you self.


I'm not hard on myself :-) Certainly no harder than on anybody else!

But I have spent a very long time tryin to think how AROS could have a use in the modern world... and every time I come back to the fact that there are newer OSs that are so much better than AmigaOS it's unreal!

I love AmigaOS, but I know it's limitations. It is a strange relic of the 80s... simultainously beautiful and irrelavant.

Much like an old classic aircraft, I would suggest the Avro Vulcan B2... wonderful to see it, the grace, the poise, it just looks right, but it can serve no practical purpose anymore... it was design with 1950s technology to carry nuclear bombs to Moscow...

AmigaOS is in that position.

Quote

There will probably be a way around it. Perhaps something shows up with the singularity project as you said, that could be used in some smart way, the AMIGA way. As an enthusiast that my hope. :-)


But the question remains, why. I love the AROS project because it preserves the OS I know and love. I ensures that no matter how technology moves on, I can still fire up that classic design of Operating system and dream about how things could have been.

AROS was also the most amazing way for me to learn how an operating system actually works. AmigaOS was an OS I knew inside out, so when I found AROS I actually got to look under the hood and mess around with it. I would probably recommend AROS as learning tool to all who want to konw how to make a simple, powerful operating system work on very low spec hardware.

Offline cicero790

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #172 on: August 07, 2008, 01:42:12 PM »
@amigadave

Absolutely ;-)  Who could have imagined fantastic things like MINIMIG and NATAMI then they closed production of the original models. Its a miracle. And AROS is also a miracle IMHO.
A1200 030 40MHz: 2/32MB Indivision AGA MkII
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AROS 600 MHz
PC 13600 MHz: quad core i7 2600K 3.4GHz: 16GB RAM: ATI HD6950 2GB   (Yes I know)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #173 on: August 07, 2008, 01:44:58 PM »
Quote

amigadave wrote:
I just love all these absolutes that keep showing up in this thread. "...never as well as other OSes..."  "....never meant for 64bit...."  "....I live in reality and you don't..."

IMHO people that speak/write in absolutes are just immature and have not been around long enough to see that anything is possible in time and things are not always the way they seem.


The immature ones are those who are sure something can be done, without first researching the problem to see if their ideas and reality actually match up.
The immature ones, are those who don't listen to someone like Piru (who probably knows AmigaOS better than anyone else on this board) when they point out the flaws in the argument.

Quote

Ever hear of the saying "Never say never".


Never...

Seriously, there comes a point where something is so unlikely that is may as well be considered impossible... or costs too much to be worth while... This is where we are at.

Offline cicero790

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #174 on: August 07, 2008, 02:28:59 PM »
@Bloodline

Let me paint another picture.

Lets say AROS gets browser support.
Then I will replace windows on one the pc's and use it for everyday tasks and in 2008 an AMIGA OS is the main OS.

Lets further more say that the multi processor support gets going and someone at some point thinks its time to get a vmmachine for AROS (We are talking future with a perhaps 24 core CPU ;-) ) Then AROS could snatch all those programs back from windows and you could still use an AMIGA OS the favorite OS.

I mean, for heavy duty tasks you use special machines like at ILM or supercomputers for weather forecasts. Compare one of these systems to a super pc and its cr.p.

I just say that AROS is very usable if you do not have extremely special needs. AROS is great, and you are part of it and you underestimate it's usability.

 :-)
A1200 030 40MHz: 2/32MB Indivision AGA MkII
A600 7 MHz: 2MB
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #175 on: August 07, 2008, 02:46:22 PM »
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
@Bloodline

Let me paint another picture.

Lets say AROS gets browser support.
Then I will replace windows on one the pc's and use it for everyday tasks and in 2008 an AMIGA OS is the main OS.


Even now I have an EPIA Mini-ITX that does nothing but run AROS... I can do quite a bit of stuff with it... but it can never exceed my iPhone, which I now use for All casual computing tasks...

Quote

Lets further more say that the multi processor support gets going and someone at some point thinks its time to get a vmmachine for AROS (We are talking future with a perhaps 24 core CPU ;-) ) Then AROS could snatch all those programs back from windows and you could still use an AMIGA OS the favorite OS.


Not really sure what you mean, here... you can run AROS in a VM already or uses the Hosted version (which will be faster than an VM).

Quote

I mean, for heavy duty tasks you use special machines like at ILM or supercomputers for weather forecasts. Compare one of these systems to a super pc and its cr.p.

I just say that AROS is very usable if you do not have extremely special needs. AROS is great, and you are part of it and you underestimate it's usability.


The problem is that every day tasks, mundane tasks... casual computing tasks can now be handled by a small battery powered device that I can hold in my hand! I only switch my main machines to do specific work.

The space the Amiga occupied has gone. In fact, up until I used the iPhone, I still had hope that the Amiga could find a place... but now, technology has moved on, the way we can use machines has changed. The world is a different place :-)

Offline cicero790

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #176 on: August 07, 2008, 02:55:35 PM »
Quote:
Not really sure what you mean, here... you can run AROS in a VM already or uses the Hosted version (which will be faster than an VM).
-------------
Well I meant the other way around. AROS running windows in a box.

Quote:
The Amiga space is gone.
-------------
You have really a pitch black view on the state of things. But I am thankful despite this, that you brought AROS to life. Thank you.
A1200 030 40MHz: 2/32MB Indivision AGA MkII
A600 7 MHz: 2MB
AROS 600 MHz
PC 13600 MHz: quad core i7 2600K 3.4GHz: 16GB RAM: ATI HD6950 2GB   (Yes I know)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #177 on: August 07, 2008, 03:10:13 PM »
Quote

cicero790 wrote:
Quote:
Not really sure what you mean, here... you can run AROS in a VM already or uses the Hosted version (which will be faster than an VM).
-------------
Well I meant the other way around. AROS running windows in a box.


But that's the wrong way around :-) AROS can't use the hardware as effectivly as Windows... so why not let the Windows side do all the hard work... and worse, if a prorgam crashes in AROS... the whole system goes down... including the Windows VM...


Quote

Quote:
The Amiga space is gone.
-------------
You have really a pitch black view on the state of things.


I'm only ever trying to be relaistic. That is why 10 years ago I decided to get behind AROS. And why now I think we need to think about the strengths of what we actually have with AROS... instead of trying to shoehorn it into something it's not going to be very good at.

If you don't stay realistic, then you will destroy the project.

Quote

But I am thankful despite this, that you brought AROS to life. Thank you.


I am only a small part of a huge number of people who have made AROS possible, you should also thank the MOS team, they have also contributed to the project.


Offline cicero790

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #178 on: August 07, 2008, 03:14:09 PM »
Thank you all involved, non forgotten.
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A600 7 MHz: 2MB
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PC 13600 MHz: quad core i7 2600K 3.4GHz: 16GB RAM: ATI HD6950 2GB   (Yes I know)

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Offline the_leander

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #179 from previous page: August 07, 2008, 04:56:33 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

The problem is that every day tasks, mundane tasks... casual computing tasks can now be handled by a small battery powered device that I can hold in my hand! I only switch my main machines to do specific work.


Same goes with me with an EeePC using a hsdpa modem. I'd consider something smaller if I thought for a second I could type with it and not get cramp though :-)

The only difference is I can litterally do everything I need bar gaming on this thing, not just the mundane stuff.

Quote

bloodline wrote:

The space the Amiga occupied has gone. In fact, up until I used the iPhone, I still had hope that the Amiga could find a place... but now, technology has moved on, the way we can use machines has changed. The world is a different place :-)


For me using BeOS, as limiting as it was (in terms of software) brought me to the same conclusion, later using Elive linux erased any lingering doubt, truly, it was the most elegant and easy to use system I've ever had the pleasure of running.

I still have a place in my heart for the amiga, it was the system that first really introduced me to what a computer could do, it was the first computer I had that got me online, brought me here, and up until 2003, was my only computer type.

Something like the NatAmi, or even an Amithlon type setup would be cool, purely from the point of a desire to play old games.

But to try to drag it into the modern day rather then celebrate its heyday through things like NatAmi, is just plain wrong at this stage. The last hope for a resurection was back in 98/99, when 3.5 came out. Don't believe me? Take a look at the software released for the Amiga that year, of the hardware being released. There was, for that brief moment in time a real hope again, a feeling that things were moving forward, yet only 2 years later, all that had stalled, the release, of the AmigaOne was delayed, the single biggest hardware producer in the community at the time (Phase 5) croaked. Key software producers were winding down and moving to other platforms. Yes, both the A1 came out, as well as OS4, but both were poor in terms of quality and years overdue.

Amigadave I am by no measure immature, I don't use words or phrases lightly, if I say something it is because I've generally researched it and am sure of my ground. Yes, great, people would like to see a modern Amiga-like OS out, but truthfully, there already are - both AROS and Haiku fit that bill quite nicely. The main problem people here have with this seems to me to be the fact that neither have the Amiga name attached to them. Building a complete new OS from the bottom up, with only a nod to the original API's (since most of them would not be workable within a modern OS) just so you can have the Amiga name plastered over it is genuinely a waste of developers time. There are better, more elegant solutions out there and developers know it.

I take no pleasure in accepting that the Amiga no longer has a place outside of a hobbyists or retro scene, indeed when I sat down and began to make plans to switch from the Amiga to BeOS, it was a very long and painful thing, I'd spent at that time over a decade learning every tip and trick to getting the most out of these obscure little machines, I had one of the single most patched/hacked/kludged systems going in terms of my 1200 both in software and hardware, there was little I couldn't tell you about any patch you cared to mention on aminet. But as I said, false hope always leads to bitter dissapointment, my wakeup call was seeing the abortion that was the AmigaOne role out, obscenely overpriced, without an OS and no real timeframe of getting one. I spent the exact same money for a complete, self built PC as just the board would have cost me, running BeOS and running a damn sight faster.

Linux came later. Elive being my final stop in the desktop before getting the EeePC and never looking back.
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