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Offline the_leander

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2008, 03:46:24 PM »
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Hans_ wrote:
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Do you have any concept of how difficult it is to produce a modern operating system that meets todays standards?

Do you?


It's not my area of expertise, but I'm not exactly ignorant on the subject either. Judging by what you've said, you've never actually been involved as an OS developer either, you just spoke to the developers.


No, you're right, I'm not a coder, but I know enough coders and have known them long enough to have a firm grasp of just how big a job reimplimenting an OS is. Yes, what you're saying with regard likemindedness is not a bad thing, but as Piru pointed out, the amount of work required to bring up to scratch the OS and drag it into the modern age would be so great that the existing code would be all but useless for the task and probably be quicker and cleaner to simply move to a fresh sheet of paper.

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Hans_ wrote:
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AmigaOS reimplimented in a modern fashion would be and is a pipe dream, one lacking in both resource and a framework. To take the AmigaOS and make it a truly modern OS, with all the things that are expected from a modern OS (SMP, multi user, memory protection etc etc etc) would be a staggaringly complex proposition, far greater then "simply" reimplimenting what came before (such as AROS or Haiku), requiring far more developer numbers then even both communities combined could offer.


You keep on insisting that it has to be a "from-scratch" implementation. It does not. There is no need to dump all the source-code.


Piru answered this better then I could. Short answer, yes, it really would.

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Hans_ wrote:
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Hans_ wrote:

Why do it? To push the system forward. We all know that breaking compatibility is required so why not just go ahead and do it?


Yes, great, but at that point, why bother? Seriously, if you are going to drop support for old applications, why not simply move to a new OS and have done with it?

A sand-box for old apps would be part of such a system so the old apps would still run (and yes, I know that this will take more time than dumping the old application support).


And this would be better then say AROS or Haiku with an intergrated Jit-UAE system, how?

I really want to understand why you feel something like you're suggesting is a prefered option over an AROS or Haiku based Hybrid. Please, explain.

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Hans_ wrote:
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There is nothing unfeasible about NatAmi, it's an FPGA board thats been told it's an amiga-alike. Now the cool factor there is the same as the C=One, it also offers the potential for developers to cut their teeth on relatively simple and elegant solutions on which to build better things, the ultimate bedroom coders board. Truthfully I feel that something like this or Amithlon *should* have been chosen as the way forward for the Amiga.

That's easy to say now that the concept has been proven. Were you around when Dennis van Weeren announced the Minimig? People were yelling "Hoax! It's impossible! It can't be done!" till they were blue in the face.


In fairness to the people who have cried hoax, how many major vapourware projects have we all seen come and go?

I lost count at around the 20 mark back in 2003.

I must admit, I wasn't around (was a bit busy being homeless and all that), so no, I didn't see the initial reaction, but it doesn't invalidate the above point.

Personally I say good luck to Dennis, it's a damn fine bit of work, same goes for this NatAmi project.

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Hans_ wrote:
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I know it is, I have some idea of the monumental difficulties involved in doing what you're suggesting with regard to the AmigaOS.


Ah, and by implication then, I have "no idea." Whatever.


No idea? I never said that. Don't put words into my mouth sunshine.

Yes, I can be abrasive at times, but I've seen far too many "lets port the AmigaOS to and add SMP, MP, 64bit etc etc, lets release it tomorrow, and do it for a quid!!!!111oneoneone", you aren't one of those, not by a long shot, but at the same time there are issues that need explanation as to why it's unlikely to happen with what you're asking. Know nothing? I've seen far too many of your posts to consider that for a second.

As for the linus torvalds crack, I should point out I'm using an EeePC with Xandros running on it to post this...
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #135 on: August 06, 2008, 03:49:46 PM »
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Hans_ wrote:
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persia wrote:
But you have to look at the competition Linux faced when Linus started the project.  Linux has 17 years of continuous development by thousands of programmers.  OS X has about a decade in development, also with thousands of developers.  MS Windows over two decades and again thousands of programmers.  

Hind sight is always 20/20. Jump back to when Linus started and you'd probably find plenty of people that would have said the same thing about Linux. "You're going to go up against existing Unix systems that have had over a decade of development by huge teams? You're blinking mad." Sound familiar?

Hans


No, Linus wrote a 386 based MINIX clone for himself... quite a straight forward task. Much like AROS was a 386 AmigaOS clone. It was other people who just started adding things to it, and bug fixing it, which lead to its popularity. No one thought Linus was mad, as he was just building a kernel for his own use, which happened to be useful to others.

If AmigaOS was useful to others outside of the Amiga community then it would have been picked up long ago.
AmigaOS is, by design, useless for modern computing needs. And trying to fix the broken parts of the API would be after a cost/benefit analysis, unjustifyable... Why spend 2 years fixing an old OS, rendering it totally incompatible with it's own software base at both a source and binary level!!!! When you could spend those 2 years making an already good OS, brilliant!

Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #136 on: August 06, 2008, 03:56:47 PM »
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And this would be better then say AROS or Haiku with an intergrated Jit-UAE system, how?

I really want to understand why you feel something like you're suggesting is a prefered option over an AROS or Haiku based Hybrid. Please, explain.


You probably wouldn't care too much about this one, but I have OS4 software that won't run on UAE. Also, UAE is rather slow so apps that don't bang the hardware directly would run much faster in a sandboxed environment.


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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #137 on: August 06, 2008, 04:02:58 PM »
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Hans_ wrote:
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And this would be better then say AROS or Haiku with an intergrated Jit-UAE system, how?

I really want to understand why you feel something like you're suggesting is a prefered option over an AROS or Haiku based Hybrid. Please, explain.


You probably wouldn't care too much about this one, but I have OS4 software that won't run on UAE.


And which of those OS4 applications is a killer app, with no free alternative on Linux?

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Also, UAE is rather slow so apps that don't bang the hardware directly would run much faster in a sandboxed environment.


But the only reason to run AmigaOS now is for those old apps... and as I've said before Almost all of the Amiga software I still want to run hit the hardware... so UAE is perfect, best of both worlds really. Especially if we are using a nice fast x86 :-)

Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #138 on: August 06, 2008, 04:14:29 PM »
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bloodline wrote:
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Hans_ wrote:
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And this would be better then say AROS or Haiku with an intergrated Jit-UAE system, how?

I really want to understand why you feel something like you're suggesting is a prefered option over an AROS or Haiku based Hybrid. Please, explain.


You probably wouldn't care too much about this one, but I have OS4 software that won't run on UAE.


And which of those OS4 applications is a killer app, with no free alternative on Linux?


I don't care if there's a free Linux alternative. I don't like many of the Linux alternatives because I think that they're badly designed.

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Also, UAE is rather slow so apps that don't bang the hardware directly would run much faster in a sandboxed environment.


But the only reason to run AmigaOS now is for those old apps... and as I've said before Almost all of the Amiga software I still want to run hit the hardware... so UAE is perfect, best of both worlds really. Especially if we are using a nice fast x86 :-)


That's the only reason for you to run Amiga OS. I haven't run any hardware banging apps in a while. Part of the fun for me is to push the system beyond its original design. As bad as it sounds, playing catch-up with the rest of the world is also kind of fun (ok, maybe not all the time).

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Offline the_leander

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #139 on: August 06, 2008, 04:48:51 PM »
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Hans_ wrote:
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And this would be better then say AROS or Haiku with an integrated Jit-UAE system, how?

I really want to understand why you feel something like you're suggesting is a preferred option over an AROS or Haiku based Hybrid. Please, explain.


You probably wouldn't care too much about this one, but I have OS4 software that won't run on UAE. Also, UAE is rather slow so apps that don't bang the hardware directly would run much faster in a sandboxed environment.


Hans


Ok, but how would breaking compatibility with your current software (as you have conceded as a necessity toward making the OS serviceable in a modern context) going to help you over porting it to such a hybrid, or getting it running under UAE?

Further, If you find UAE slow, try Amithlon, seriously, the difference is night and day and even on a system such as a 901 or 1001 EeePC, likely faster and more responsive then any Amiga or AmigaOne ever built.
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Offline Piru

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #140 on: August 06, 2008, 05:10:16 PM »
@Hans_
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Libraries are generally written such that the application holds the data itself.

Unfortunately this is not the case. Most libraries maintain library side data structures which are shared between different callers. These require total rewrite in MP environment.

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But how many of the device APIs actually pass pointers to the driver internals? The input device, timer device and others definitely don't. Their message internals could remain the same.

Except that the messaging system must go (see below), which means the device interface will change, too. -> rewriting tons of code.

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Exec Message passing

Well, obviously. But what kind of a change are you thinking of? I'd expect the message passing by reference to continue, but with a requirement that the entire contents of a message must be in shared mem (or temporarily shared mem, if possible), and the message receiver isn't allowed to cache pointers (i.e., after a reply message, it no longer has access).

I was merely pointing out the problems, not suggesting any ways to fix them (yes, this is much easier, I know :-)). Since the actual message can contain arbitrary data (say pointers to even more data elsewhere in memory!), it's impossible to re-use this concept in an MP environment. This is one of the largest problems since it means ALL message passing code must be rewritten everywhere. And this problem is extremely widespread since messages are in the core of pretty much every other OS component and application.

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Don't IRQ handlers operate in kernel space? If so, what's the issue?

They call user code directly. Assuming each process has it's own memory space this just won't work at all.

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How many would involve data crossing over process boundaries? Yes, those would be a real pain.

Most. There are couple of context dependant pointers passed to the hook function for example, and the hooks again call other process' code from the context of either another. Total mess from MP POV. This means hooks must go too, so anything using them must be rewritten.

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Exactly what is the difficulty with expanding ints to int64s? We're breaking compatibility anyway, so keeping structure alignment isn't necessary.

Assuming AmigaOS, all of the existing code is hardcoded to 32bit ints (pointer sizes mostly). AROS situation is better here, but AFAIK not everything is fixed yet.

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To get things started, you'd need the new exec kernel and a set of device drivers running before the sandbox could be put in place.

Device drivers alone won't do it I'm afraid. Or are you suggesting the sandbox would somehow use the drivers directly? That'd lead to double work since you'd then need to somehow access them from both the sandbox and the new OS itself. Also, not many device drivers handle two simultanous accessors well (for example imagine two OSes fighting over the access to HDD, display framebuffer and input devices). This plan smells of disaster.

One way or another one of the OSes must explicitly manage the actual hardware resources, and then provide them in a safe, controlled manner to the other. If you plan to have MP, this manager can't be the sandbox -> you must have pretty advanced new OS before the sandbox can work.
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #141 on: August 06, 2008, 05:25:12 PM »
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Ok, but how would breaking compatibility with your current software (as you have conceded as a necessity toward making the OS serviceable in a modern context) going to help you over porting it to such a hybrid, or getting it running under UAE?


Having a similar API would ease the porting process.

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Further, If you find UAE slow, try Amithlon, seriously, the difference is night and day and even on a system such as a 901 or 1001 EeePC, likely faster and more responsive then any Amiga or AmigaOne ever built.

It's no longer available. Amithlon could have become the basis for a new Amiga OS. Too late now with all the developments that have happened since.

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Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2008, 06:01:09 PM »
@Piru

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Piru wrote:
@Hans_
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Libraries are generally written such that the application holds the data itself.

Unfortunately this is not the case. Most libraries maintain library side data structures which are shared between different callers. These require total rewrite in MP environment.

Such as the library open count? No-one but the system needs access to those.

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Quote
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Exec Message passing

Well, obviously. But what kind of a change are you thinking of? I'd expect the message passing by reference to continue, but with a requirement that the entire contents of a message must be in shared mem (or temporarily shared mem, if possible), and the message receiver isn't allowed to cache pointers (i.e., after a reply message, it no longer has access).

I was merely pointing out the problems, not suggesting any ways to fix them (yes, this is much easier, I know :-)). Since the actual message can contain arbitrary data (say pointers to even more data elsewhere in memory!), it's impossible to re-use this concept in an MP environment. This is one of the largest problems since it means ALL message passing code must be rewritten everywhere. And this problem is extremely widespread since messages are in the core of pretty much every other OS component and application.

I already said that the pointers to arbitrary memory would no longer be acceptable. I even discuss pointers in the bit that you quoted. Now why would the timer messages have to be changed? I think that the driver messages with pointers to data buffers could remain mostly intact too; the buffers would just have to reside within shared memory, or within the message allocation itself. That's going to annoy some app developers, but I don't see that as a reason to completely dump the message passing scheme.

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Exactly what is the difficulty with expanding ints to int64s? We're breaking compatibility anyway, so keeping structure alignment isn't necessary.

Assuming AmigaOS, all of the existing code is hardcoded to 32bit ints (pointer sizes mostly). AROS situation is better here, but AFAIK not everything is fixed yet.


typedef void* APTR;
Doing a search and replace for LONG would be a good start (just not through all source-files in one shot). This would be more of a tedious task than a hard one.

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To get things started, you'd need the new exec kernel and a set of device drivers running before the sandbox could be put in place.

Device drivers alone won't do it I'm afraid. Or are you suggesting the sandbox would somehow use the drivers directly? That'd lead to double work since you'd then need to somehow access them from both the sandbox and the new OS itself. Also, not many device drivers handle two simultanous accessors well (for example imagine two OSes fighting over the access to HDD, display framebuffer and input devices). This plan smells of disaster.


Anything in the sandbox would have to go through an abstraction layer, so you'd likely have to write a scsi.device, trackdisk.device, etc. that would go through the abstraction layer (yes, more work I know).

The sand-box would be more for running the existing GUI system and other higher-level stuff. Basically anything that's not exec, DOS or a device.

Having said that, some drivers could initially be allowed to access hardware "directly" (still going through some kind of layer) from the sand-box until a replacement exists for the new OS. The idea is that, initially, the new OS would only be running one app, the sand-box. So, having something like the USB stack running in the sand-box and providing it with exclusive access to the USB card wouldn't be a big deal as the new OS wouldn't have its own USB stack yet. As soon as the new OS gets its own stack, the sand-box would require a wrapper.

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Offline the_leander

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2008, 06:27:15 PM »
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Hans_ wrote:
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Ok, but how would breaking compatibility with your current software (as you have conceded as a necessity toward making the OS serviceable in a modern context) going to help you over porting it to such a hybrid, or getting it running under UAE?


Having a similar API would ease the porting process.



But no moreso then using the hypothetical Haiku/AROS hybrid from what I can see.
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Offline Piru

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #144 on: August 06, 2008, 07:14:26 PM »
@Hans_
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Such as the library open count? No-one but the system needs access to those.

No. Things inside the library. Things the functions (called from various different processes) modify.
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I already said that the pointers to arbitrary memory would no longer be acceptable.

That'd break almost all existing code and you'd need to rewrite much of it. Not to mention there wouldn't be trivial way of detecting wrong usage, other than having the process bomb due to access violation.
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the buffers would just have to reside within shared memory

Using shared memory kind of cripples the idea of MP IMHO. Especially since things as DMA can take a very long time and the buffer would sit exposed for extended periods.

Also, how is this shared memory going to work? By forcing each memory allocation to pagesize alignment? Or by copying the whole message around at putmsg and replymsg? Using copy sounds pretty bad for anything that passes largish data around. Forcing alignment to pagesize doesn't sound particularily appealing either.
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typedef void* APTR;

Except that there are million things that don't use it.
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Doing a search and replace for LONG would be a good start (just not through all source-files in one shot).

Manually check every occurance of LONG? Sounds pretty mind numbing, indeed...
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The sand-box would be more for running the existing GUI system and other higher-level stuff. Basically anything that's not exec, DOS or a device.

So to recap: You must write much of the new system before you actually get to run the sandbox.
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #145 on: August 06, 2008, 07:19:11 PM »
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the_leander wrote:
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Hans_ wrote:
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Ok, but how would breaking compatibility with your current software (as you have conceded as a necessity toward making the OS serviceable in a modern context) going to help you over porting it to such a hybrid, or getting it running under UAE?


Having a similar API would ease the porting process.



But no moreso then using the hypothetical Haiku/AROS hybrid from what I can see.


I am assuming that the message passing system will still be similar, instead of the complete replacement that Piru says would be required. That would make it easier.

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Offline Hans_

Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2008, 09:18:49 PM »
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Piru wrote:
@Hans_
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Such as the library open count? No-one but the system needs access to those.

No. Things inside the library. Things the functions (called from various different processes) modify.


Could you please provide a solid example so that I understand what the problem is?

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I already said that the pointers to arbitrary memory would no longer be acceptable.

That'd break almost all existing code and you'd need to rewrite much of it.


Inserting appropriate message allocations would be tedious, but it's not like you have to write things from scratch.

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Not to mention there wouldn't be trivial way of detecting wrong usage, other than having the process bomb due to access violation.


Now this is something that I just didn't think about. It would be nasty if you could crash a process just by sending it a bad message.

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the buffers would just have to reside within shared memory

Using shared memory kind of cripples the idea of MP IMHO. Especially since things as DMA can take a very long time and the buffer would sit exposed for extended periods.


The memory wouldn't have to be shared with everyone. Nor would it have to be writable by all processes with which it's shared.

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Also, how is this shared memory going to work? By forcing each memory allocation to pagesize alignment? Or by copying the whole message around at putmsg and replymsg? Using copy sounds pretty bad for anything that passes largish data around. Forcing alignment to pagesize doesn't sound particularily appealing either.


Large messages (i.e., ones with big buffers) could be page-sized. For small messages a copy would probably be the sensible thing to do.

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typedef void* APTR;

Except that there are million things that don't use it.

Hence the next line below.
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Doing a search and replace for LONG would be a good start (just not through all source-files in one shot).

Manually check every occurance of LONG? Sounds pretty mind numbing, indeed...

I don't think that a manual check would be needed for every occurrence.

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The sand-box would be more for running the existing GUI system and other higher-level stuff. Basically anything that's not exec, DOS or a device.

So to recap: You must write much of the new system before you actually get to run the sandbox.


Correct. Although as I said, initially some of the drivers could be inside the sand-box with exclusive access to the hardware. That would be the case until a native version was available for the new system.

Hans

EDIT: I've just realized how much time I've wasted debating something that won't happen any time soon (if ever).
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #147 on: August 06, 2008, 11:38:52 PM »
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Hans_ wrote:
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the_leander wrote:
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Hans_ wrote:
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Ok, but how would breaking compatibility with your current software (as you have conceded as a necessity toward making the OS serviceable in a modern context) going to help you over porting it to such a hybrid, or getting it running under UAE?


Having a similar API would ease the porting process.



But no moreso then using the hypothetical Haiku/AROS hybrid from what I can see.


I am assuming that the message passing system will still be similar, instead of the complete replacement that Piru says would be required. That would make it easier.

Hans


Dunno about AROS, but Haiku, like BeOS took some of the best ideas from AmigaOS, things like the datatypes system and brought it bang up to date with things like video codecs etc. My thought was to essentially take Haiku, and build a JIT-UAE into it in a seamless fashion as a service, kind of like Amithlon, I would imagine the same could be done more easily with AROS, though with that you would loose many more modern options that would come with Haiku.

I honestly can't see any other way of jump starting Amiga except to piggyback on another OS, or, through something like NatAmi. The days of AmigaOS, even OS4 as we knew it, are over.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #148 on: August 07, 2008, 12:04:16 AM »
Quote

Hans_ wrote:
Quote

Piru wrote:
@Hans_
Quote
Such as the library open count? No-one but the system needs access to those.

No. Things inside the library. Things the functions (called from various different processes) modify.


Could you please provide a solid example so that I understand what the problem is?

EDIT: I've just realized how much time I've wasted debating something that won't happen any time soon (if ever).


Hans... no offence meant here, but have you ever done any Amiga development at all? I ask because the questions you are asking show a real lack of knowledge with AmigaOS... If you want to find out more about how AmigaOS works, just have a look over the AROS source code it would give you a much clearer idea of the scale of the problem!

Offline HenryCase

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Re: Wither Natami?
« Reply #149 from previous page: August 07, 2008, 12:47:37 AM »
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the_leander wrote:
Haiku, like BeOS took some of the best ideas from AmigaOS, things like the datatypes system and brought it bang up to date with things like video codecs etc.


Apart from datatypes, in what ways is BeOS/Haiku similar to AmigaOS?

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bloodline wrote:
Hans... no offence meant here, but have you ever done any Amiga development at all?


No offence, but... do you intend to stir trouble or are you just naive? In any case, just so Hans_ doesn't have to rise to your bait himself, he is working on OpenGL stuff for AmigaOS4 IIRC.

@all
I'm sure you're all aware of CAOS, the operating system the Amiga was destined to have from the start. Here's some information about it if you need a refresher:
http://www.thule.no/haynie/caos.html
Now from what I can tell from that synopsis CAOS was very similar in design to what we now know as AmigaOS, but with a few key differences that allowed for better MP, better file system, etc...

Two questions:
1. Will copying or adapting some of the design features from CAOS allow us to move into a more stable AmigaOS without having to rewrite all the subsystems from scratch?
2. Will these CAOS features restrict us in building the application sandbox Hans_ is proposing?
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