Wither Natami?

[jj]

@ wawrzon

If you can not bee bothered to fully read somone's posts, in my opinion you don't really have good grounding on which to comment on them.

[the_leander]

Hans_ wrote:


The different visions are exactly why people are tearing at each other. I wish that everyone would move to Amiga OS 4 (ignore the hardware availability issues for a second please)

No, that's at best disingenous. The reason OS4 is dead is that the hardware it was designed to run on was a pile of cack even when it was available.

Yes, it was faster, but it has an attrition rate higher then that of the original Amigas it was trying to replace!

In evolutionary terms, it's a dead end. Time to move on.

Hans_ wrote:
there's also a group that want Amiga to remain a retro machine.

There is a good reason for this too, those of us who wish this realise the gap between what the Amiga in it's heyday was able to offer, and what is out there now is too great a gap to bridge, you may as well start from scratch at this point.

Hans_ wrote:
What would be neat is if a next-gen API could be collectively agreed upon, and then implemented on all the next-gen Amiga systems. That is, however, unlikely to happen.

It's also unfeasable to push a single user, non memory protected, non smp capable OS into a new device without starting from scratch, simply adding an new API won't cut it.

The best you could possibly hope for is some heavily patched beast running on something like an EeePC or mini itx board, because anything else would litterally be wasted on AmigaOS - it simply isn't capable of utilising anything more complex or capable.

[the_leander]

wawrzon wrote:
ur posts are too long to read. but i havnt accuse u of nothing. i just wanted to point out something that might interest u as aros supporter, remembering that u were critical about natami.

Bad spelling, grammar, coupled with an unwillingness to listen. How very efficient of you.

And again, for the hard of learning: Bloodline was not critical of NatAmi, he stated that there was nothing intrinsically better or worse about NatAmi verses a software solution like Amithlon.

Not the same thing.

[wawrzon]

@jj: tell me where did i in my last post comment on anything.
@the_leander: so what? are we going for insults? i reffered to another thread that bloodline maybe will recall.

[wawrzon]

and 4 ur info: i would probably go for amithlon any day if it was available. as for now i prefer the real theing. i do not care much for my uae installs anymore since to boot windows first to get into them is to bothersome.

[the_leander]

wawrzon wrote:
@jj: tell me where did i in my last post comment on anything.

You might want to re read your own stuff as well as others.

wawrzon wrote:
@the_leander: so what? are we going for insults? i reffered to another thread that bloodline maybe will recall.

If you cannot be bothered to read other peoples comments, then you deserve to be stomped on. Whether it is this thread or any other.

[HenryCase]

@all
Just finished reading through all your posts so far, I get the feeling this matter (though rather pointless) is getting people down, hopefully my POV can help change this.

What is an Amiga computer? It is the A1000. There were no other computers ever given this name. What followed after were members of the Amiga computer family. The A1200 is just as much a part of the Amiga family as the Natami is/will be.

As for the whole Amiga software vs Amiga hardware issue, of course they are both useful. What we must understand about ourselves is that some Amiga fans are more drawn to the classic hardware architecture whilst others are more drawn to the Amiga software side. It's about what we find interesting, rather than what is more useful.

Speaking personally, I never really used AmigaOS/Workbench much, I was much more interested in games back in the day, and later I came to appreciate the hardware that made those games possible. Running software through emulation, whilst perfectly usable, doesn't give me quite the same buzz, as I  like the classic Amiga hardware design, and would rather be running the software on a computer with that architecture.

We all have different reasons for liking Amiga computers, let's not delude ourselves that these reasons have to be based on "what's best". Use the Amiga and its related technologies/applications to give yourself maximum enjoyment, forget about how other Amiga users may prefer to spend their time. Often progress in one area of Amiga development is loosely beneficial to another area, so be glad for all Amiga development.

[wawrzon]

@the_leander: u dont know what humour is, do u? then go on flaming. im off 4 now anyways. not going to be interesting.

[Hans_]

the_leander wrote:

Hans_ wrote:


The different visions are exactly why people are tearing at each other. I wish that everyone would move to Amiga OS 4 (ignore the hardware availability issues for a second please)

No, that's at best disingenous. The reason OS4 is dead is that the hardware it was designed to run on was a pile of cack even when it was available.

Yes, it was faster, but it has an attrition rate higher then that of the original Amigas it was trying to replace!

Disingenuous? In what way is anything that I said disingenuous? I simply stated my personal preference. The comment in brackets is because I know that it's kind of hard to get OS4 if you don't already have a PowerPC classic Amiga or an Amigaone.

BTW, I have one of those "piles of cack" (sic) that you speak of, and for a "pile of cack," it works pretty darn well. You clearly have no idea what state OS4 is in, or the hardware.

You can disagree with me if you wish, but suggesting that I am being disingenuous is plain stupid. Nothing I said is wrong; some want OS4, others want MOS, or AROS, or just the classic OS.

Hans_ wrote:
there's also a group that want Amiga to remain a retro machine.

There is a good reason for this too, those of us who wish this realise the gap between what the Amiga in it's heyday was able to offer, and what is out there now is too great a gap to bridge, you may as well start from scratch at this point.

And? I didn't say anything negative about the retro crowd. I simply listed it as another position. If people want to stick with their A500s and A1200s, etc., that's fine by me.

Hans_ wrote:
What would be neat is if a next-gen API could be collectively agreed upon, and then implemented on all the next-gen Amiga systems. That is, however, unlikely to happen.

It's also unfeasable to push a single user, non memory protected, non smp capable OS into a new device without starting from scratch, simply adding an new API won't cut it.

Wrong. It's not adding an API, it's creating/using a new API. The new API would be incompatible with the old one, so old software would run in a legacy environment. Apple did it with Mac OS X, so it can be done. Except, with Amiga OS, the difference between the two APIs needn't be so drastic. Just because you don't know how to do it doesn't make it unfeasible.

The best you could possibly hope for is some heavily patched beast running on something like an EeePC or mini itx board, because anything else would litterally be wasted on AmigaOS - it simply isn't capable of utilising anything more complex or capable.

That's the best that you could hope for, not everyone else. There is no technical reason why Amiga OS could not utilise something more complex or capable.

BTW, no, I do not expect Amiga OS to suddenly catch up to the rest of the computing world; I just happen to enjoy pushing it forward beyond what it was originally designed for. That's pretty similar to the Natami guys, who are pushing the original hardware design forward, instead of the OS. I think that the Natami project is pretty neat.

Hans

[persia]

The idea to build a new Amiga on top of QNX was a great idea, unfortunately it fell by the wayside.  QNX is a small efficient micro kernel, unix like and very stable.  QNX's economy of scale matched the Amiga philosophy perfectly.  Sadly the project died over a lack of leadership from you know who...

[SamuraiCrow]

@Hans_

(Off topic rant about non Natamis)

The Natami is pushing the hardware limits but it will only be able to run OS 4+ if they add a PowerPC accelerator card to it.  Before the Mac went to Intel the PowerPC was a vibrant design with lots of attention and now it is relegated only to game machines which are restricted by hypervisors so that they don't allow ordinary people to experience their full potential.

I think PowerPC is a dead-end as much now as ever and the Intel and AMD processors are reaching a dead end also due to the heat restrictions of higher clock frequencies and are turning their attention toward multiple cores.  Since their software doesn't run well on multiple cores they are going to be at a standstill.

I think the Intels will make it further than the PowerPCs because they have a more compact instruction set but that will wear thin when easier-to-use instruction sets prevail.  I think the way of the future is asymmetric multicore design where the cores are dedicated to the functionality they are intended for.

What makes an Amiga, in my opinion, is the dual-bus architecture.  While most computers are stuck with a left-brain dominant design that didn't allow for parallelism, the Amiga introduced a computer with a right hemisphere for creative thinking.  On most computers it may be considered a required peripheral for graphics and sound, but on the Amiga it was standard, integrated, and elegant.  On the stock A1200 it was even right-brain dominant due to the underpowered main processor.

I could say more but if you want to hear more of why I think the way I do, I'll start a new thread.

[TheMagicM]

YES, I knew my EFIKA could be called an Amiga.  

[amigadave]

persia wrote:
The idea to build a new Amiga on top of QNX was a great idea, unfortunately it fell by the wayside.  QNX is a small efficient micro kernel, unix like and very stable.  QNX's economy of scale matched the Amiga philosophy perfectly.  Sadly the project died over a lack of leadership from you know who...

I too was very disappointed that AInc. did not follow through with the partnership with QNX.  AOS4.x would have been completed years earlier IMHO.

@SamuraiCrow,

Start a new thread, I would be interested in your opinion of a smart way forward beyond or parallel to the NatAmi project.

[persia]

Yeah, I'm curious too.  It seems to me that OS X is about as parallel as you can get.  I use multiple cores 8 in two separate units, I borrow processing from other computers in my house.  Everything just works.  I fail to see how AmigaOS could take advantage of any of this.

[SamuraiCrow]

persia wrote:
Yeah, I'm curious too.  It seems to me that OS X is about as parallel as you can get.  I use multiple cores 8 in two separate units, I borrow processing from other computers in my house.  Everything just works.  I fail to see how AmigaOS could take advantage of any of this.

I use a Mac Pro at work also.  I've run out of time for one night but this thread will have to make do for now.

[amigadave]

persia wrote:
Yeah, I'm curious too.  It seems to me that OS X is about as parallel as you can get.  I use multiple cores 8 in two separate units, I borrow processing from other computers in my house.  Everything just works.  I fail to see how AmigaOS could take advantage of any of this.

I am also a fan of MacOSX and use a MacBook for most of my email and online bill payments.  I really like the way the Mac "just works" too.

I don't agree with your last sentence though.  What is to stop any future AmigaOS from utilizing ALL the features and power of hardware similar to the Mac or modern PCs and making them look like dinosaurs in comparison due to the future AmigaOS being so lightning fast and resource efficient?  I am not talking about next month or even next year.  If it were ever to happen, it would likely take several years for a new AmigaOS to be written (be it AmigaOS4.x, MorphOS2.x, AROS, or something new from scratch), and although I would like for it to be able to run the old legacy Amiga programs some how, I have come around to agreeing with many that think legacy compatibility is not a high priority.  We have the UAE, MiniMig, CloneA and NatAmi for future compatibility with the old programs and games.

Not worrying about legacy compatibility will allow creation of something completely new that is not crippled by any past dependencies on hardware or software.  It would be nice to have an Amiga that the World looks at and just says "Wow" again because it is so much better than anything else available anywhere.  We actually have an advantage that Windows, Linux, MacOS and all the rest do not have, in that we could start with a clean slate, if only we could muster the needed programmers and hardware designers to accomplish such a monumental task.  Could history repeat itself again?  Could a small group of very talented hardware and software geniuses come together and actually create a system as advanced beyond what is available today, as the Amiga once was when it was first introduced?  Probably not, but it sure would be nice to see that kind of creativity once again.

Back on Topic, I look forward to the NatAmi project as an improved version of what we already have.  Just a way to advance the original Amiga concept beyond where it has so far been dragged into the future, but nothing more than a hobby project with great backward compatibility and strong ties to the original Amiga machines.