Wishing for mainboard with new component layout for A1200

[Protek]

Having read about Dennis' MiniMig and Georg's project, as well as the NatAmi, I've really began to hope that someone with skills and resources would redesign the A1200 mainboard with a component layout that would make it possible to create a pci or even agp busboard with single slot that would fit inside regular A1200 desktop case. In practise, the accelerator connector should be in upper left corner, leaving enough space for the backside connector leads. This way, there would hopefully be enough height for custom busboard and a graphics card fitted the same way as slimline CD-ROMs. The IDE connector and hard drive would reside under the trapdoor, providing easier access. Of course, there would be possibility to soup up the hardware but in the beginning, I think that reorganising the components would be enough.

[A6000]

This new board should also use the superaga chipset.

[alexh]

And if it could end world hunger and all wars that would be good too :-)

George's project was made possible because most (all?) the chips on the A1000 motherboard were socketed. On the A1200 they are all surface mount. Harvesting the chips for a new A1200 motherboard would be prohibitively difficult.

I have a feeling that George was also a PCB designer by trade and was able to "borrow" on a lifetime of experience and access to the latest PCB tools which greatly reduced the NRE of the PCB.

One of MiniMig's great strengths (only strength?) is its form-factor. Being so small compared to any real Amiga was a great selling point. Had it been the same form factor as an A500 I doubt it would have sold in as many numbers.

I don't believe their is a willingness to develop a replacement A1200 motherboard (at the moment). This may well change if an open source AGA implementation becomes available.

Although... I was just thinking... I wonder why Jen's schoenfeld did not consider making his new A1200 scandoubler into an ultra basic RTG capable video card?? The FPGA and the RAM would almost certainly have facilitated one.

Maybe there were not enough CPU signals going to the Lisa chip to which it clips.

[trekiej]

Does the Amiga 1200 and the 600 have the same layout on the back except for the mouse ports?
I was wondering if the A600 board could fit into an A1200 case.
If one board was designed to fit in both it could be a seller.
:-D

[A6000]

There seems to be no shortage of people willing and able to design new boards, we have 4 already, so why not an a1200 replacement?, we certainly would not reuse 15+ year old components, a new design would use new modern components.  

[alexh]

trekiej wrote:
Does the Amiga 1200 and the 600 have the same layout on the back except for the mouse ports?

Yes

[alexh]

A6000 wrote:
There seems to be no shortage of people willing and able to design new boards, we have 4 already

Four?

A6000 wrote:
so why not an a1200 replacement?

Because of the availablity of the AGA chips. Or rather lack of it.

A6000 wrote:
we certainly would not reuse 15+ year old components, a new design would use new modern components.

You HAVE to use some old components. You cannot get anything to replace the Commodore AGA custom chips.

Unless you design new ones (ala MiniMig / NatAmi). Which isn't going to be easy, quick or cheap (not to mention compatible). Also, MiniMig is not AGA (or finished) and NatAmi is a closed source project :-(

[A6000]

alexh wrote:
You HAVE to use some old components. You cannot get anything to replace the Commodore custom chips. /quote]

SUPERAGA.

[alexh]

A6000 wrote:
SUPERAGA.

Doesn't exist.

[Piru]

Even if ignoring every other unrealistic bit in this thread:

Who would write the drivers for the PCI and/or AGP cards? They don't just magically work once plugged in.

[arnljot]

Piru wrote:
Even if ignoring every other unrealistic bit in this thread:

Who would write the drivers for the PCI and/or AGP cards? They don't just magically work once plugged in.

LOL, we're hoping for you Piru

I must admit that I also catch myself dreaming for a new A1200-like machine.

But I think that Natami and MiniMig are our two best chances so for of producing such a machine.

MiniMig:
As I understand part of it is based on the UAE code. Now I seem to have read that the FPGA doesn't have enough umph or gates to do AGA. But this could change. Maybe a rev. design could put another FPGA on it, or another clever solution might fall into place. I think that if the MiniMig get's enough time to mature, it'll have both USB, IDE and AGA. But it will take time, lots of time.

Natami:
Now, this kit will give you PCI. And a new AGA dubbed "SUPERAGA". Now alexh says that it doesn't exists. Well, it's perhaps a bit harsh. If we agree that Natami exists, then it follows that the new AGA chipset exists, because Natami doesn't use any of the Amigas original custom chips.

The hard thing for us who are impatient, is that a Natami is probably just as far away as a "Minimig v2". The difference between the two projects is monumental: Minimig started out small and has delivered, Natami has huge ambitions and is still in development. What people hold against Natami is it's ambitions and that there has only been one demo.

But back to the question of dreaming of a new A1200. I think that if you want a new A1200, side with either of these two excellent efforts. Can you code, then look into what you can contribute with. If you're a user, give encouragement and voice your support, and most importantly in our small community: Buy the products, and support the few remaining vendors.

[alexh]

arnljot wrote:
MiniMig:
As I understand part of it is based on the UAE code.

Wrong. Denis said that he used the Commodore HRM (Hardware reference manual) to create MiniMig.

arnljot wrote:
Now I seem to have read that the FPGA doesn't have enough umph or gates to do AGA.

Partly right. It's not so much not having enough capacity. More that it doesn't have a 68020 CPU or enough RAM.

arnljot wrote:
if the MiniMig get's enough time to mature, it'll have USB

I hope not. Native USB and Amiga are not a good combination.

arnljot wrote:
"SUPERAGA". Now alexh says that it doesn't exists. Well, it's perhaps a bit harsh.

Why? It doesn't exist. You cannot buy it anywhere. The source code is not available. For all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.

arnljot wrote:
If we agree that Natami exists

But we don't, because it doesn't. (Yet)

arnljot wrote:
then it follows that the new AGA chipset exists, because Natami doesn't use any of the Amiga's original custom chips.

But even if Natami did exist and was for sale it today, it would come with it's own PCB!

If you are asking if NatAmi could be made to fit into an A1200 case, that is practical and possible sometime in the future, if NatAmi is released and the designers are willing. It's certainly not something you can start planning today.

arnljot wrote:
What people hold against Natami is it's ambitions and that there has only been one demo.

And I don't think it was a demo of AGA? It was the "Super" extensions which the author appears to have created for a previous (paid) project.

I wish the creator of NatAmi all the luck in the world. It is obvious he is an Amiga enthusiast who is also a knowledgeable software/hardware engineer who, having done a 3D accelerator project thought... wouldn't it be cool if the Amiga had these features and set out to create an Amiga compatible chipset with extensions.

But at the moment the website contains aspirations which are embarrassingly touching on fantasy. The technical details are too low, they contradict themselves and seem to negate compatibility with classic Amiga. I am almost sure a lot of the website is not the work / words of the developer but the people who are surrounding / helping him with the website.

But if he's a real hobby developer, he wont give a crap what other people think. He's doing this for himself, for fun, screw what anyone else says or does! He's doing the bits that are fun, skipping the bits which are boring. I think it's cool.

[Piru]

Natami:
Now, this kit will give you PCI.

But it what it won't give you is the drivers. Having PCI slots you can't plug any cards into is quite pointless.

Regarding Natami, it does sound awful lot like the author has a bad case of "featurutus", that is piling more and more features that'll always further complicate the project and make it less and less likely to ever get finished.

Such stories of creeping featurism are not unheard of in the amiga world. The story of BoXer comes to mind.

[arnljot]

@Piru
Yes, scope creep. I can´t believe that it hasn´t dawned on me before. But with the 070 and all. It seems like they are/he is engeneering towards a moving target.

@alexh
I more or less agree with all of what you wrote, even the part of the Natami "not existing", because I can´t buy one. To my knowledge there existed boxer boards, but they were perhaps not working? But even if it ever did, it does not exist. Much like Clone-A...

But,

alexh wrote:
I hope not. Native USB and Amiga are not a good combination.

As a person who is not a hardware engineer, and neither knows the AmigaOS insides or APIs, but as a user I must disagree on this one. Just a mouse and keyboard alone almost justifies this one to me, and then add mass storage and it´s perfectly clear to me that this is a very important feature.

Yes, one can have PS2. And yes it´s probably cheaper to implement. But isn´t the point to always move forwards

There should however be a prioritized list of features, so that it´s constantly evolving. Features don´t need to incubate for years before they appear.

slightly off topic:
It seems that the 68040 are abundant, in speeds 25mhz, 33mhz and 40mhz. Would it be a suitable choice for a "power minimig"? Which one of the 68 series is most common, except for the 68000?

[AJCopland]

Part of the issue with USB are that you need a CPU side USB stack/driver to control the peripherals that you plug into it and that it actually takes a bit of processing power to do run that. There are already USB stacks for the Amiga though so it must be workable.

For building a "power minimig" or "MiniMigV2" etc the 68060 makes more sense from a simplicity point of view. This is because the 060 is a 3.3v part whilst the 020, 030 and 040s are all 5v parts. The rest of the MiniMig (FPGA, RAM et al) is all 3.3v so attaching them will require voltage level shifting and different power planes for the two voltage regions on the board which makes it all more complicated and a lengthier process to build.

Of course the 68060 is harder to get hold of and more expensive...

Andy