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Offline arkpandoraTopic starter

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Some questions about the Minimig.
« on: June 30, 2008, 11:21:06 PM »
Hi,

I am considering buying a Minimig, but as I am not a specialist I would like to ask you Minimig users/specialists some questions/confirmations.

1. Can you confirm that the scan-doubled signal is digital, in other words that especially animation quality is identical to the one of an Amiga with a CRT video monitor or an Amiga through a Picasso IV's scan-doubler for example, and not the ugly animation quality I get with LCD TV/monitors scan-doubling analog Amiga input ?

2. Can you confirm that you need a 50 Hz monitor ?

3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?

4. Is it worth waiting for a possible update of the Minimig before buying one ?

Thank you for any help !
 

Offline Tension

Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 11:39:27 PM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
Hi,

I am considering buying a Minimig, but as I am not a specialist I would like to ask you Minimig users/specialists some questions/confirmations.

1. Can you confirm that the scan-doubled signal is digital, in other words that especially animation quality is identical to the one of an Amiga with a CRT video monitor or an Amiga through a Picasso IV's scan-doubler for example, and not the ugly animation quality I get with LCD TV/monitors scan-doubling analog Amiga input ?

2. Can you confirm that you need a 50 Hz monitor ?

3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?

4. Is it worth waiting for a possible update of the Minimig before buying one ?

Thank you for any help !


RE Question 4.

It could be argued that that attitude got the Amiga in the state it`s in now?

Offline arkpandoraTopic starter

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 12:12:07 AM »
Well, good question - I mean good answer.

Not as far as I'm concerned, as if I don't receive any answer I will buy one, and if the answer is "Yes" I would only wait because I already have what I need - that is a classic Amiga.  Anyway I don't think that waiting potential customers had any influence in the Amiga's destiny, as they are not a distinguishing feature of the Amiga, or only as a consequence of other factors, which as far as I'm concerned were and would still be a reason to buy an Amiga.
 

Offline Tension

Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 12:22:23 AM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
Well, good question - I mean good answer.

Not as far as I'm concerned, as if I don't receive any answer I will buy one, and if the answer is "Yes" I would only wait because I already have what I need - that is a classic Amiga.  Anyway I don't think that waiting potential customers had any influence in the Amiga's destiny, as they are not a distinguishing feature of the Amiga, or only as a consequence of other factors, which as far as I'm concerned were and would still be a reason to buy an Amiga.


Fair enough.  I was just remembering a rant that CU Amiga Magazine had in it`s last issue.  It was basically blaming A500 owners who didn`t upgrade as the cause of Amiga development stopping.  I would agree with that statement.

However, a quick glance at one of the polls on this site reveals that most people`s first Amiga was an A500.  So without the A500, there would have been no Amiga user base in the first place!!

I started out with an A600 (all my mates had A500s).  It looked soooo much better than the A500 - shame about the lack of edge connector though.  Then after a few years I got an A1200, then several more A1200s, then an A4000. Yipee!!

Offline bloodline

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 12:32:40 AM »
Quote

Tension wrote:
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
Well, good question - I mean good answer.

Not as far as I'm concerned, as if I don't receive any answer I will buy one, and if the answer is "Yes" I would only wait because I already have what I need - that is a classic Amiga.  Anyway I don't think that waiting potential customers had any influence in the Amiga's destiny, as they are not a distinguishing feature of the Amiga, or only as a consequence of other factors, which as far as I'm concerned were and would still be a reason to buy an Amiga.


Fair enough.  I was just remembering a rant that CU Amiga Magazine had in it`s last issue.  It was basically blaming A500 owners who didn`t upgrade as the cause of Amiga development stopping.  I would agree with that statement.


It was the users fault, by sticking with the A500, software developers would generally target 1985 technology... But the big problem was Commodore using the same Technology from the first to the last Amiga... Had C= locked into a 6month product cycle (though very ambitious for the early 90s) then things would have been better...



Offline arkpandoraTopic starter

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 01:10:31 AM »
@Tension

Quote
I was just remembering a rant that CU Amiga Magazine had in it`s last issue. It was basically blaming A500 owners who didn`t upgrade as the cause of Amiga development stopping. I would agree with that statement.


As I said, this phenomenon was true for any computer owner, not only the Amiga owner.  But the Amiga owner had no reason to upgrade, because even until Commodore's end in 1994 most Amiga games were designed for a 1986 setup, whereas most PC games were designed for recent setups.  Journalists - especially video games journalists - are to blame here, as most of them were simply ignoring the Amiga except the popular basic models and setups (500, 600, 1200, CDTV and CD32), and some even complained when a game was programmed for a high-end Amiga.  As a result, the public thought that the Amiga was only an old machine and games had to be programmed for the same basic models in order to sell.  Death was the only possible end.

I suppose that CU Amiga and other Amiga-specific magazines showed a different behaviour, and their readers were already Amiga owners, which in addition were most probably not only interested in games but other software that needed more powerful Amiga setups.


@bloodline

Quote
It was the users fault, by sticking with the A500, software developers would generally target 1985 technology...


See answer above.

Quote
But the big problem was Commodore using the same Technology from the first to the last Amiga... Had C= locked into a 6month product cycle (though very ambitious for the early 90s) then things would have been better...


I answered a similar post from you in another thread.  Commodore's slowness was primarily a natural consequence of this journalism phenomenon : seeing that the press was only interested in recent PC and Mac models but old basic Amiga models, all Commodore had to do in the end is making IBM compatible systems or trying to retrain as low-cost game consoles manufacturer...
 

Offline DyLucke

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 01:30:29 AM »
Actually can be designed a very capable mainboard
maintaining some Amiga standards to make this "new"
system a continuation from the Classical Amiga, and
add to this new platform enough pieces of "oldskool"
hardware to make it retro-compatible via some
kind of easy emulation. We can't just think about
running old programs, we need to move on, it's futile
to buy a new comp in order to run old software, when
you can still get some "originals" just go for a classic
second hand Amiga, or be a bit more ambitious...
Evolve or die. That's a rule.

That's what i think. That retro-policy made Amiga to
be stuck for a decade without 3D capabilities, same
machine formats, low clock rates and small memory amounts.
We lost the battle and we can't think on being in the
past if we want to survive.

Classic Amiga can't die, can be emulated properly if we
add key hardware to NEW and MODERN systems.

So if you only want to run old programs buy some
A500 or evolve and open your eyes to a new Amiga
standard that will still be able to run oldskool
via emulation.

Greetings
The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke.

A1200 Blizzard 060/66 64MB FastRam + 40GB HDD + Subway USB.
A1200 Apollo   040/33 32MB FastRam + 40GB HDD.
CD32!!!!
A500 4MB + 2GB IDE-CF adapter.
Mac Mini G4 1,5ghz  waiting for MorphOS.
C64, C64C, C64G, C128... 1541U-II.
Atari STe... SatanDisk, Atari 130XE... SDNuxx
 

Offline arkpandoraTopic starter

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 02:29:43 AM »
@DyLucke

Quote
Actually can be designed a very capable mainboard
maintaining some Amiga standards to make this "new"
system a continuation from the Classical Amiga, and
add to this new platform enough pieces of "oldskool"
hardware to make it retro-compatible via some
kind of easy emulation.


I agree with you, but to my knowledge such a system doesn't exist yet, and as far as I'm concerned I still haven't managed to obtain normal animation in emulators (but I'm still working on it).

Quote
We can't just think about
running old programs, we need to move on

Evolve or die. That's a rule.

We lost the battle and we can't think on being in the
past if we want to survive.

evolve and open your eyes


As a result, if buying a Minimig is being stuck in the past, then using any Amiga is being stuck in the past as well, and _you_ are stuck in the past.  My purpose is opposite : I'm not running "old programs", but some titles that I love and see as timeless works of art.  You would be stuck in time by letting them disappear.

Quote
it's futile
to buy a new comp in order to run old software, when
you can still get some "originals" just go for a classic
second hand Amiga


Old second-hand computers stand a good chance of breaking within the next years, unlike a new machine like the Minimig.  Since I am no good at all with my hands, it is an important difference.

Quote
or be a bit more ambitious...


You are talking to yourself.

Quote
That retro-policy made Amiga to
be stuck for a decade without 3D capabilities


3D graphics is not progress : it's just a different technique of expression.  There's nothing "retro" about the Amiga or 2D in themselves.  Only people are retrograde.

Quote
same machine formats


What do you mean ?

Quote
low clock rates and small memory amounts


Were you a journalist at the time ?  ;-)

Quote
Classic Amiga can't die, can be emulated properly if we
add key hardware to NEW and MODERN systems.


I am looking forward to such a solution.
 

Offline DyLucke

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 08:43:25 AM »
Easy, get a Classic computer for our little pieces of art,
and get a new board that means improvement to use new
software and new capabilities.

What i said about adding "key hardware" to the new systems
afaik has not been implemented in any new Amiga computer.

But as you can know UAE does fairly good on PC's, just
figure what could be emulated if you add some custom
oldskool chips on a new Amiga computer. (Emulation would
be way easier, way efficient for only a bunch of $ more)
That's what i mean.

Actual Amiga manufacturers that are able to design a
"minimig" that is not an "improvement" by itself but
an old computer in a new shape, could add the
imprescindible hardware used on that minimig to our
new mainboards to add some "oldskool emulation mode",
with a really effective result.
But noone decided to do that.

As a resume, i would not buy a minimig, i would buy an
Efika or a Sam440ep instead a minimig, and keep at the same
time my old A1200 till the moment some of these platforms
reach the point of having an efficient backards emulation
using software or maybe using some part of hardware
either in future models.

Nope i was not a journalist at that time but i was
an Amiga user who expanded his 1200 as much as i was able,
and the result of every improvement effort Phase5 or other
great companies also was "New oudtated hardware".

Why? Our Viper accelerators could not compete with
PC's in performance due the loooooooooooow clock rate
of our A1200 and A4000 mainboards... 14mhz. And if
you were able and lucky enough and rich enough to
afford an A4000 with some 3D card like the
"awesome" "Cybervision 64 3D" you got a really
expensive sollution using an S3 Virge chip, while
PC's were using GPU's even ten times faster...
Even my Playstation was more efficient than that
and costed a fraction of what my Amiga costed.

That's what happens when new hardware gets stuck
by using a platform designed with standards
from 15 years ago, Commodore got stuck with
that retrocompatibility, so third party manufacturers
were not able to improve the system by themselves.

ACube should not lose its time on designing a minimig
but think about HOW to implement a decent emulation
and reduce costs on the NEW boards.

:-)

Greetings
The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke.

A1200 Blizzard 060/66 64MB FastRam + 40GB HDD + Subway USB.
A1200 Apollo   040/33 32MB FastRam + 40GB HDD.
CD32!!!!
A500 4MB + 2GB IDE-CF adapter.
Mac Mini G4 1,5ghz  waiting for MorphOS.
C64, C64C, C64G, C128... 1541U-II.
Atari STe... SatanDisk, Atari 130XE... SDNuxx
 

Offline DrDekker

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 01:16:57 PM »
As I remember it most A500 owners (myself included) were unwilling to upgrade because:

1. The majority of games were poorly coded and would only run on bog standard A500/A1000/A2000.

2. High end/expanded Amiga's still had very poor printer output compared to the PC.

3. High end Amiga's cost an arm and a leg - but still lagged behind the PC in most (all?) business applications.

4.Expansions and peripherals also cost an arm and a leg.  Since only ray tracing software and the like could take real advantage of the added harware it seemed like a lot of wasted money to the average user.

5. PC's were becoming much cheaper, powerful and better supported.

However, none of this actually stopped me from upgrading to an A1200 with, 256Mb HD, M-Tech 1230, 8Mb ram, etc, etc.
   
A1200, M-Tec 1230 @28MHz, FPU, MMU, 8Mb fast ram, SCSI card, 512Mb HD, Power CDROM drive, PS2 optical mouse
 

Offline alexh

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2008, 01:38:01 PM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
1. Can you confirm that the scan-doubled signal is digital

The scan doubling is 100% in the digital domain.

Quote

arkpandora wrote:
2. Can you confirm that you need a 50 Hz monitor ?

With the current official version of MiniMig core you DO need a 50Hz capable monitor. There is an illegal release (he didn't release the source) by a guy called Yaqube who hacked in a quick change for unofficial 50->60Hz conversion, it's not great but it allows you to use an LCD monitor. Yaqube is preparing a better versions (hopefully with source this time).

Quote

arkpandora wrote:
3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?

No

Quote

arkpandora wrote:
4. Is it worth waiting for a possible update of the Minimig before buying one ?

If you wait too long, you find yourself unable to buy the populated MiniMig boards.
 

Offline TheDaddy

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2008, 01:49:34 PM »
@arkpandora

As alexh says, just buy one, you won't regret it, it's good fun, it's new and it has many advantages and modern features over your old A500.

Oh and don't forget to buy my case for it:

http://www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/preview.htm

so you'll have a brand, shiny new system (which can be other systems too remember).

 :-)
 

Offline Crom00

Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2008, 02:07:45 PM »
1) Identical to the Amiga signal, even better as it uses Amber the VGA chip in the FPGA.

2) You need a 50hz monitor but I downloaded the 60hz core and it works. Be advised that 60hz core gives you a NTSC minimig so you're subject to all the icompatiblities of a gohz machine. 50hz is more compatible with the ABANDONWARE offerings out there. 60hz is easier to work with as it's much easier to source a 60hz monitor (epsicially in the usa)

3) Check the compatibility lists for games, there's one bug that comes up repeatedly in popular team 17 games, the main sprite is invisible in Superfrog and Super startdust...2 of my favorite games.

4) Minimig is a huge milestone in the Amiga history. It is a shot across the bow of retro computing and gaming IP squaters everywhere. If you want to support projects like this and have the disposable income, or are a coder that will develop for it then by all means buy it.

I've been told with todays technology an AGA MiniMig is possibl for almost the same cost... especially if it were to be mass produced. Ideally I'd like an A1200 class MiniMig or better. Don't be surprised if the next version of a project like this has 040 speeds, graphics card, and HDF support built in. For now Minimg is kicking ass!

Quote

arkpandora wrote:
Hi,

I am considering buying a Minimig, but as I am not a specialist I would like to ask you Minimig users/specialists some questions/confirmations.

1. Can you confirm that the scan-doubled signal is digital, in other words that especially animation quality is identical to the one of an Amiga with a CRT video monitor or an Amiga through a Picasso IV's scan-doubler for example, and not the ugly animation quality I get with LCD TV/monitors scan-doubling analog Amiga input ?

2. Can you confirm that you need a 50 Hz monitor ?

3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?

4. Is it worth waiting for a possible update of the Minimig before buying one ?

Thank you for any help !
 

Offline whiteb

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2008, 04:11:18 PM »

2) Confirmed.

3) DMA Bugs, Floppy controller bugs.

4) I'll wait a month, I'll wait a month, I'll wait a month, I'll wait a month.  Product is so old, its not supported by the time you get one.

A4000D - CSMKII//128MB/IDE CF/Indivision Scandoubler
A1200
A1000

(And now a Minimig) :>)
 

Offline alexh

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Re: Some questions about the Minimig.
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2008, 05:55:48 PM »
Quote

Crom00 wrote:
1) Identical to the Amiga signal, even better as it uses Amber the VGA chip in the FPGA.

It doesn't really use Amber. Minimig has it's own equivalent (also called Amber) but is unlikely to work exactly like the real Amber chip did.

Quote

Crom00 wrote:
I downloaded the 60hz core and it works. Be advised that 60hz core gives you a NTSC minimig

In reality I dont think Yaqube's 60Hz mod really makes an NTSC minimig. It cannot because to do so you would have to  change the main MiniMig crystal (which is by default a PAL crystal). It's just a hack.

Quote

Crom00 wrote:
so you're subject to all the in compatiblities of a 60hz machine. 50hz is more compatible with the STOLEN SOFTWARE offerings out there.

It is probably much worse. Yaqube's hacks, combined with MiniMig's original bugs combined with some of the traditional NTSC Amiga incompatibility :-(

Quote

Crom00 wrote:
I've been told with todays technology an AGA MiniMig is possibly for almost the same cost...

Not true. There are no 3.3v 020 chips for example.