NatAmi 68070 design draft

[amigaksi]

>I'm simply trying to show people the flaws in their thinking.

You try to find faults with people or things even if you don't understand them.  Because you must know since you read so many books.  There's no chance that you misunderstood.

[amigaksi]

>You (and others here) certainly seem to have much greater knowledge than I, about the specific technologies being discussed.

Don't be mislead.  Someone may fantasize and hope it comes true, but it's worse to be living in a fantasy thinking it's reality.  It's much harder to come out of that state of mind.

Any computer that let's you do cycle exact manipulation of registers and I/O ports has a place in real-time systems.  Modern OSes like Windows XP/Vista machines were never meant for real-time applications.  If you can get away with doing it with an Amiga or a variant, it has something unique that modern systems don't offer.  As I stated, people in PC-realm stress more than CPU clock speed so timing accuracy is not significant for them as it might be for others.

[amigaksi]

>Although there is more I'd like to discuss about the Natami, I think it's best I bow out of this discussion to avoid further damage to the Natami project.

His speculations won't damage anyone's Amiga projects.  He speaks of the scientific method but he himself just makes claims that are obviously wrong (perhaps random Googling is superior for him than the scientific method).  I state that it's a good choice to pick the Amiga @7.16 Mhz over the Atari ST @8Mhz and look at this argument:

>I doubt even 1% of the people who bought computers in the 80s even know what speed their CPU was... or even that CPUs had speed ratings.

WRONG.

>You bought the computer that had the most software, or the one that had the better software...

WRONG.

Who in their right minds would accept such false claims?  I bought the Amiga because of it's hardware not because of the software.  

[amigadave]

amigaksi wrote:
>Although there is more I'd like to discuss about the Natami, I think it's best I bow out of this discussion to avoid further damage to the Natami project.

His speculations won't damage anyone's Amiga projects.  He speaks of the scientific method but he himself just makes claims that are obviously wrong (perhaps random Googling is superior for him than the scientific method).  I state that it's a good choice to pick the Amiga @7.16 Mhz over the Atari ST @8Mhz and look at this argument:

>I doubt even 1% of the people who bought computers in the 80s even know what speed their CPU was... or even that CPUs had speed ratings.

WRONG.

>You bought the computer that had the most software, or the one that had the better software...

WRONG.

Who in their right minds would accept such false claims?  I bought the Amiga because of it's hardware not because of the software.  

If you are going to dispute some one else's generalized statements with "WRONG", at least pick ones that you can prove are false.  I don't happen to agree with the 1% statement, but doubt that anyone can prove it right or wrong.  You are making it a big deal and implying that since you believe that those two statements are false, then all of his other assertions must also be false.  That is not a logical assertion either, you are just making yourself look equally weak minded to make those kind of statements, so stick to disputing things that you can actually prove to be false or incorrect, not general statements that don't really matter anyway.

I happen to agree that the majority of people that buy computers today buy based on the software they want to run, or just buy any computer with MS Windows because they don't know the difference, or they know nothing about the alternatives.  The people that visit this forum are not part of the majority, they are exceptional.

[amigaksi]

>If you are going to dispute some one else's generalized statements with "WRONG", at least pick ones that you can prove are false. I don't happen to agree with the 1% statement, but doubt that anyone can prove it right or wrong.

CPUs had speed ratings.  You can check out all the adverts and tech articles in the magazines.  Everyone I know that bought Atari/Amiga computers knew the CPU Mhz.  I don't have to prove a 1% thing-- he does.  Regardless, don't you see that he MISSED the point altogether-- it's a very simple point-- you can be ridiculed even if you are right like Galileo or others in history.  And the point was to someone else's statement not to his.

I addressed the points he made to my reply-- I'm not stating that everything he wrote (to others) is right or wrong.  It seems he's already trying to find fault before he understands the point.

[amigaksi]

>I happen to agree that the majority of people that buy computers today buy based on the software they want to run, or just buy any computer with MS Windows because they don't know the difference, or they know nothing about the alternatives. The people that visit this forum are not part of the majority, they are exceptional.

But he wasn't addressing todays machines-- the reference was to 80s with Atari ST/Amiga and he wrote:

>You bought the computer that had the most software, or the one that had the better software...

So you need only one instance where a person bought the machine not because it has the most software to disprove his point.

[Britelite]

CodeSmith wrote:
I agree that no existing software makes use of the new features, but again I point you at the C64.  There's a very cool game called "metal dust", that won't run on a stock C64 - it requires a SuperCPU expansion that was released after CBM went under. The SuperCPU is an accelerator that adds a new, partially incompatible CPU (undocumented opcodes don't work and it's not cycle exact) to a C64, so it's a significant hardware change.  People will write new software for an old platform.

Considering that Metal Dust is probably the ONLY scpu-game in the past 10 years, I hardly find that example encouraging for Natami project.

Oh, and SCPU has been a dead platform for ages anyway...

[tiffers]

If they did go for a ColdFire based option then it'd be up within the speed range of a PSP/PS2.

I'm not really sure how you are making this comparison... I simply don't know where the information for such a conclusion could have come from?

Speed like a PS2

tiffers

[tiffers]

NATAMI seems to have some crazy idea about making a better Amiga, for no discernible reason...

Because he [Thomas Hirsch] wanted to? He's obviously very capable to have gotten this far, on his own. If he decided to make an A4000 replacement, then partway through realised he could extend it, and make something that could 'realistically' have been the next gen back in 1994, why _shouldn't_ he do it?

That he's told the community and everyone's getting excited / annoyed about the idea is beside the point. It's his project, he's doing it his way. Of course he now has community input and that may be making some impact, but I believe the SuperAGA was planned before the 'meeka' demo which started the current craze.

What's wrong with him doing it? If he pull sit off successfully.. sweet. If not.. egg on his face. No real affect on you, nor the Amiga community, except perhaps some disappointment. I think it's great someone has the balls to give it a go.

bloodline, are you in the group of people who say the AmigaOne isn't a real Amiga, because it doesn't have the Amiga custom chips in it?

tiffers

[tiffers]

@alexh

I wonder who this guy is. Either he's the best novice HDL programmer in the world. He used to work in a hardware company which developed 2D and 3D HDL and borrowed upon his knowledge from projects gone by.

Or it's bollox.

Have you any idea how long it takes to develop a rasteriser from scratch?? Add in filtered texture mapping and shading and Z-clipping and you are talking a good years worth of research and work.

I know, designing hardware 3D accelerators was my first job.

It's certainly not a two week task working evenings and weekends.

Looks like he was involved with designing 3D accelerators too

http://www.greyhound-data.com/gunnar/

tiffers

[alexh]

Makes sense, there is no way he could have done it from scratch in the time. He's "borrowed" some of his old work for NatAmi. It was probably his inspiration.

Nice to know.

[biggun]

bloodline wrote:

It's fine, but it's not a commercial idea. It's a hobby idea, it's not $20 ASICs and $100 dev boards... it is these claims that irritate me.

They are not ambitious claims, they are false claims! and they make a joke out of the Amiga and the NATAMI project.

Do you  have a problem reading or do lie on purpose?


The Natami team NEVER promised, that we will sell the Chip for $20 !

We clearly stated that our long term goal is to develop the HDL code for SuperAGA Chipset and including a CPU, which altogether could be made into an ASIC.
This Asic would then be a AMIGA in a single chip.

The ramp up cost for a Altera Hardcopy are 250,000 quit.
A piece price for a hardcopy ASIC of < $20 is a correct statement.  

We never claimed that we have the money to invest.
What we said is that we want to bring the chip design
to functional state that this could be done.
Our goal obviously is to find people interested to make new inexpensive classic Amigas happen again.


I find it rather unfair of you to misquote us here,
and to call us liers based on your misunderstanding of the whole.
 
Gunnar

[bloodline]

biggun wrote:

bloodline wrote:

It's fine, but it's not a commercial idea. It's a hobby idea, it's not $20 ASICs and $100 dev boards... it is these claims that irritate me.

They are not ambitious claims, they are false claims! and they make a joke out of the Amiga and the NATAMI project.

Do you  have a problem reading or do lie on purpose?

I appreciate this thread is big and probably unreadable now.
But I suggest you ask me questions directly, before accusing me of anything.

The Natami team NEVER promised, that we will sell the Chip for $20 !

I never said you did!
But there are supporters of the project that do claim that NATAMI will have a full AGA compatibility + SuperAGA + 200Mhz CPU (of indeterminate ISA) on a single FPGA for $20...

It is claims like these that I feel make a joke out of the NATAMI project.

You would do well to distance yourself from them.

 

We clearly stated that our long term goal is to develop the HDL code for SuperAGA Chipset and including a CPU, which altogether could be made into an ASIC.
This Asic would then be a AMIGA in a single chip.

Let's keep this at the "could" stage... Because I have no problem with this idea. Infact, I am hoping for single Chip A1200.

The ramp up cost for a Altera Hardcopy are 250,000 quit.
A piece price for a hardcopy ASIC of < $20 is a correct statement.  

But the initial investment is too massive. There is no way anyone could raise enough money to start that off! What I would suggest trying to get an FPGA version into the afordable region... If the unit can emualate multiple Retro architectures then there starts to be a significant potential...

We never claimed that we have the money to invest.
What we said is that we want to bring the chip design
to functional state that this could be done.
Our goal obviously is to find people interested to make new inexpensive classic Amigas happen again.

This is a perfectly reasonable goal, but there are many on the Amiga boards who don't understand how much work or money it would take to take an FPGA design to an ASIC and be able to produce it in quantity and at a low cost! These people then turn the whole thing into pointless dream that is unrealistic and stuipd!

I find it rather unfair of you to misquote us here,
and to call us liers based on your misunderstanding of the whole.

I would refer you back to my earlier posts, I have not called you a liar. I would prefer you not to call me one either. I have tried to discount the absurd claims of those with no technological understading or even a grounding in the real world...

[alexh]

biggun wrote:
The ramp up cost for a Altera Hardcopy are 250,000 quit.

Which one?? $400,000 is the quoted NRE price for a Hardcopy IV.

biggun wrote:
A piece price for a hardcopy ASIC of < $20 is a correct statement.

What is the MOQ (minimum order quantity) at that price?

biggun wrote:
What we said is that we want to bring the chip design
to functional state that this could be done.

Looking forward to it. If you can further the development of the Amiga cores (68k & custom chips), give advice to open source projects such as MiniMig then everyone's a winner :-)

[wawrzon]

@bloodline:

frankly, you actually never directly attacked the natami team, but you have accused the technical ideas behind the project to be a joke and insult to the name of amiga, while basing ur criticism mostly on statements made by so called "supporters". if i was a serious dev whose project is criticized like that, i would sure get nasty with u.

so called "amiga comunity" is full of infantile enthusiasts so if you regard urself as something better just do not waste ur time discussing their mistakes.

[biggun]

alexh wrote:

biggun wrote:
The ramp up cost for a Altera Hardcopy are 250,000 quit.

Which one?? $400,000 is the quoted NRE price for a Hardcopy IV.

That's the offer that we got from our Altera sales contact.

biggun wrote:
A piece price for a hardcopy ASIC of < $20 is a correct statement.

What is the MOQ (minimum order quantity) at that price?
[/quote]

Minimum quantity for was 10,000


Cheers