AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?

[persia]

AROS with integrated UAE (not WinUAE, that's the Windows version of UAE) would be an interesting idea.  You could evolve AROS without losing backwards compatibility with 20 year old software.

[codenetfx]

@ persia:

I spent some time today to read up on current status of AROS and it seems that UAE (WinUAE was my lapse, I meant to say UAE of course) port already exists (mentioned on the FAQ page). On the same page, it also says that 68k emulation does not work because of little-endian vs. big-endian issue (not quite clear why this is an issue, as WinUAE runs on Intel even though Intel should have the same issue and does not - maybe it just needs to be clarified).

In any case, UAE could provide backward-compatibility while AROS could provide API compatibility going forward. Either way, it would be Amiga OS compatible. I will definitely take a look at the Virtual Machine they made available for download which contains AROS.

Natami is a great project, but my concern is that it may not be able to serve the market. If it does, great. If it does not, I will continue to look at AROS. Worst thing that can happen is that I will learn something new about Amiga OS, APIs and emulators.

[Atheist]

codenetfx wrote:
@Atheist

However, I am interested in NatAmi although I do not understand your claim about its scalability up to 3GHz. Can you provide more details? Since NatAmi is based on MC68060, how do we get to 3GHz (in theory)?

Hi codenetfx,

When I was quoting the 3 GHz, I was saying so as in "3 GHz is not an unattainable plateau". 3 GHz components have been made, they work. We could have the same, eventually. I wasn't going out on a limb and saying, "hey man, we're getting shiny new 5.734 GHz CPUs before intel and AMD can scratch their bum tomorrow", when NO ONE has such parts working reliably. They don't, neither could we have them too.

[bloodline]

codenetfx wrote:

Most people who buy Macs use them for fairly mundane purposes - surfing, Photoshopping, digital lifestyle stuff and I do not see a single reason why Amiga cannot do the same or better *today* with or without OS 4.

Apple were pretty clever in the early part of this decade, and bought up a load of productivity softawre and made it OSX only. Take Logic Pro (the Audio production osftwre I use), Apple bought it from Emagic, and built their OSX audio subsystem around Logic... now Logic works beautifully on a Mac... And only runs on a Mac... it's a killer App, I have to buy a Mac to use it. Apple even give away a cut-down version of Logic Pro (called Garage Band) with every Mac for free!

Logic Pro is just one example of this, Apple have plenty of others... mostly video and gfx software.

PPC cards are so rare and expensive that without additional "inventory", they only add to the predicament of Amiga OS 4. Following the same thought, if someone was able to design a PPC card, designing an Intel-based card should not be far fetched.

Not such a bad idea.. moder x86 chips are really too advanced, and the amount of interface chips would essentially make the acelerator an entire x86 computer.. but maybe one of the older x86... a nice idea... but once you support x86, it's better/cheaper/quicker just to use an off the shelf x86 board.

Port OS 4 to Intel, then sell the OS CD with the card as one package. If hardware was available, I am sure applications would grow around it fairly fast, given Amiga's user base.

Well, lets just stop all this talk of OS4 ported to x86. Hyperion Don't want to do it (they ahve stated this on many occations). Hyperion have also stated that they legaly cannot do, since they only bought the right to write OS4 for the PPC. Amiga Inc. and Hyperion are now in court. There will be no more working between them. It's over, OS4 stops at the PPC.

I also like the AROS idea, but lack of binary compatibility is problematic. However, I keep reminding myself how elegantly Apple solved the "old mac" issue with Carbon.

You have confused Carbon with ClassicEnvironment. Carbon is NOT binary compatible with Mac OS9 apps, it is only API compatible with OS9 app. Developers could take their OS9 source code and recompile it for Carbon, and their app would work on OSX. In that respect AROS is a bit like Carbon. OS9 apps do not work on OSX, unless you use the ClassicEnvironment...

The Classic Environment is a Virtual machine, much like UAE, except it doesn't bother to emulate the CPU (this is why ClassicEnvironment only works on PPC OSX Macs). When you run an OS9 app on a PPX OSX Mac it is actually being run inside an Emulator which has a hidden interface.. i.e. all interface calls are passed to OSX so the app appears to be runing in OSX.

Could not AROS emulate "old Amiga" and still pave the way towards the new, running on some cool Intel hardware with clear hardware requirements? I am not aware of "Classic Amiga" emulator (WinUAE) for AROS but it seems like a feasible solution, particularly for games and demo scene. Would not that be cool? 68K that runs way faster via software and a great Intel-based OS underneath.

The plan for AROS is to hide UAE inside AROS... much like the ClassicEnvironment... so that 68k apps would actually be loaded into the hidden UAE and all the apps windows etc would be displayed on the AROS desktop as though the app is running natively.

What nobody wants is some AmigaAnywhere stuff which smells of overcooked java beans. I think we all identify Amiga with some cool metal, silicon and software - not more, but also not anything less.

AmigaAnyware doesn't even make sense in the modern computing world.

MorphOS also looks good, but seems to be PPC-based, which is a no-no since there is no hardware available.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that binary-compatible WinUAE port for AROS would make Amiga a viable platform once again. And open source to boot.

I agree, and have done since 1999 :-D

[bloodline]

codenetfx wrote:
@ persia:

I spent some time today to read up on current status of AROS and it seems that UAE (WinUAE was my lapse, I meant to say UAE of course) port already exists (mentioned on the FAQ page). On the same page, it also says that 68k emulation does not work because of little-endian vs. big-endian issue (not quite clear why this is an issue, as WinUAE runs on Intel even though Intel should have the same issue and does not - maybe it just needs to be clarified).

68k is not a problem as long as the 68k programs are not allowed to interact freely with the x86 programs. That is why we want to take the approach of putting the 68k apps into their own little VM world of UAE and carefully control how much interaction they have with x86 AROS.

If we simply integrated the 68k emulator into the OS like MOS and AOS4, then the 68k apps would be allowed to "play around" with the x86 system structures... the problem is that on x86 data is stored : "DCBA" (little endien) and on the 68K the same data is stored: "ABCD" (big endien)... so 68k apps in a x86 environment will read the data the wrong way around, and thus fail.

Things get even more problematic when you use the 64bit x86 verion of AROS (which is probably more advanced now than the 32bit x86 version).. where the 68k apps have no concept of 64bits at all (no 68k Amiga software is 64bit compatible) and wouldn't work even if the x86 was big endien!

All my x86 machines are 64bit now...

In any case, UAE could provide backward-compatibility while AROS could provide API compatibility going forward. Either way, it would be Amiga OS compatible. I will definitely take a look at the Virtual Machine they made available for download which contains AROS.

Yes, exactly.

Natami is a great project, but my concern is that it may not be able to serve the market. If it does, great. If it does not, I will continue to look at AROS. Worst thing that can happen is that I will learn something new about Amiga OS, APIs and emulators.

For me AROS + UAE integration is the way forward... but someone needs to get on with the 68k version of AROS to make this a reality. Since for this to work we need a 68k version of AROS :-)

[Jpan1]

Does it make a difference as to x68 or x86 based architecture?

>>> '''I'd love so much to have a nice custom and "special" harware where to run my beloved Amiga OS (and the Amiga was and is a great mixture and cooperation between software and hardware)'''

Yes, I agree Onix.
The term 'home computing' nowadys, seems to be now PC or a Mac, which are used in office and home and only one OS for all. That's why I prefer still to use the Amiga over a PC,(albeit an outdated one) because it's fun to use! not just a work machine.

In my opinion people liked thr simplicity of computing, and usuabilty with wide range of applications, which was what the Amiga offered back in the 80's and 90's.

The best OS next to Amiga has to be for me, Apple OSX which is something which is cool and looks smart!

Microsoft tried to cross the gap between home market and PC work market with 'Home editions' of Windows, and now Vista, but they are waaay too big memory guzzling monsters! > which is why I'd to go back to using a 'user friendly' but effective OS's that isnt memory and power intensive!

As for the Hardware, I like the looks of the EeePC by Asus and think that this less powerful 900mhz hardware with more effective operating systems would bring computing back to it's home domain.

Wouldn't the best way forward be to ensure compatabilty of the old Amigas through emulation and standalone new Amiga OS adapted for the current hardware available?

b.t.w
I had a 1200 tower and A4000(the 4000 was cool) but these were big boxes! back then I sold both for about 40 quid, ach.. little did I know what prices would be now, and the popularity of the Amiga! doh!

As for the name, I would evolve that one too, to avoid the likes of Amiga inclined (inclined to do nothing!)
 :-?

Maybe something like Amika, or similar :-D
blah.

[persia]

The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for.  It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to?  Why should Joe Hobbyist bother with it when there's Linux and BSD around?  There's no killer apps for it, you can't use a modern web browser or open a Word document (yes I know Word '97, but lately everyone I work with has been sending docx files and try opening a Word 04 file with tables, comments and the like) and there's no company or organisation supporting it.

The Amiga community is in a sad shape, the fact that even with Moana available we can't make OS4 work on a Mac Mini shows how far we have sunk in terms of skill.  

[Jpan1]

That's the thing! who need Word documents when you can easliy do it with a PC?
Look at the Iphone, Xbox or Wii and other Machines..
They have defined a market without compatabilty issues.
The serve the users adequatley for their needs.
I would not like to use Word or Excel on the Amiga because for me I can do it on a PC, that's why the niche computer market for me, internet/games/music would serve most users adequatly and Word is a pile of pants anyway!
Final Coppy II gave me what I needed. Dpaint 5, soundtracker and all my creative need were fullfilled by the Amiga, only it they stopped producing them so I had to use a PC by way of default, in the end, the mainstream can do there stuff I wanna my own

[codenetfx]

@persia

Amiga's niche overlaps with Mac's niche but can go much further with broadcast quality animations (think pixar), and video authoring and editing.

With good development tools (which can target "Amiga Classic" (68K, for the UAE) and "Amiga Nuevo" (for the actual platform OS is running on) , Amiga's (small) kernel can be very useful for both desktop and mobile devices.

However you twist and turn the issue, you end up with one question: where is the hardware and where are the drivers for that hardware that work with *any* Amiga OS? Lack of stable drivers is at the root of Vista disaster because Microsoft did not learn the lesson from Windows 95 (which was also a rollout disaster but coincided with "it is time to get some new machines" so few noticed the disaster with hardware incompatibility. At the time, I had a 486DX-33MHz and about $1 million dollars worth of memory in that machine (20 megs, when memory was priced like gold - and it still was not enough for Windows 95. It did not like the SCSI, it did not like the graphics card, it did not like the chipset (!?), so I ended up with a very expensive print server and a brand-spankin' new "Windows 95" machine which was a piece of crap (sluggish and occassionally driver-buggy). No wonder Apple insists on guarding its hardware like there is no tomorrow.

Interestingly, drivers are the hottest topic on AROS project. To push Amiga forward, we need to roll up our sleeves and write some drivers (for AROS) to support high-end components (such as those cool Voodoo cards cooled with two fans and 512MB RAM).

Mobile platform for Amiga is a project in its own right, possibly even more far-fetched than OS4 on Intel

AROS works, looks good, boots up in no time. Apps included in the VM distribution are very quick, hinting at great performance under the hood.

[koaftder]

persia wrote:
The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for.  It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to?  

Retro gamers.

[bloodline]

codenetfx wrote:

Interestingly, drivers are the hottest topic on AROS project. To push Amiga forward, we need to roll up our sleeves and write some drivers (for AROS) to support high-end components (such as those cool Voodoo cards cooled with two fans and 512MB RAM).

I'm sorry? Voodoo cards haven't been made for 10 years... a $15 ATI or Nvidia card from your local computer store will be many orders of magnitude more powerful!!!

AROS does all right for drivers... since the generic hardware drivers that come with AROS offer more than enough performance for any Apps currently available...

Mobile platform for Amiga is a project in its own right, possibly even more far-fetched than OS4 on Intel

Since there are no AmigaOS clones for the ARM CPU (at this time, I know there is a guy working on Compiling AROS for the ARM) and nothing about the Amiga's interface or architecture particularly lends itself to the mobile Arena... I really can't see why a mobile Amiga platform is particular attractive?

AROS works, looks good, boots up in no time. Apps included in the VM distribution are very quick, hinting at great performance under the hood.

It is more fun on real hardware :-)

[A6000]

koaftder wrote:

persia wrote:
The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for.  It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to?  

Retro gamers.

Retro(amiga)gamers are a small and limited market.

We should consider the Amigas' strengths and capitalise on them. They are;-

Efficient AmigaOS, small, fast and adequate.
Known hardware, few incompatibilities from unknown hardware or drivers.

All we need is new hardware to replace ageing or dead hardware.
Amigas' should appeal to anyone who wants a system to work without trouble or a pile of manuals a metre high.
P.S don't mention the number of bookshelves you have filled with amiga books. :lol:

[bloodline]

A6000 wrote:

koaftder wrote:

persia wrote:
The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for.  It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to?  

Retro gamers.

Retro(amiga)gamers are a small and limited market.

But it's the only market open to the Amiga...

We should consider the Amigas' strengths and capitalise on them. They are;-

Efficient AmigaOS, small, fast and adequate.

Antiquated, unstable, insecure, single user, nonPOSIX and no modern software.

Known hardware, few incompatibilities from unknown hardware or drivers.

Stuck on 20 year old technology... it is going to appeal only to Retro Gamers at best.

All we need is new hardware to replace ageing or dead hardware.
Amigas' should appeal to anyone who wants a system to work without trouble or a pile of manuals a metre high.

But we are not going to appeal to anyone who wants to use a computer to do anything that one expects from a computer now.

P.S don't mention the number of bookshelves you have filled with amiga books. :lol:

:-?

[persia]

I agree, drivers are the big bugaboo, they don't exist for most modern technology.  When have you last seen a non-USB or non-Firewire device outside the Amiga world.  The lack of USB 2 and Firewire limit the speed you can actually move information from an external device to the Amiga.

Here's an example, I plug my camera into my Mac's firewire port and transfer the video, or I capture live, it doesn't matter.  I can edit real time.  I can feed it back out through my Apple TV which is hooked to my TV's HMDI port.  I can rip video from a DVD, capture internet streaming video and mix and match.  

The Amiga can do none of this.  It's an anachronism, an analogue SDTV device in a digital HDTV world.  The applications primitive at best, have you seen the features in Lightwave 3D v9?  Truly Amazing.  

My camera produces 12 MP Raw image files which I edit with Aperture quite easily, try that on an Amiga.  

I really fail to see a niche for the Amiga outside retro games.  My phone runs OS X, my personal music device Linux.  You can't even drive a modern printer, how is Amiga OS going to drive a phone?  

In the end this is why Amiga Inc is what it is, there's no market, it would take millions of man hours to make Amiga OS modern and then you'd end up with UAE to run the retro games that everyone likes.

Maybe, maybe, maybe the Amiga could be redesigned and upgraded to go against PSP, Wii and XBox, but I get the feeling that there are too many players there already.  

It's too late.  Amiga INcs programmers only know dotNet...

[A6000]

Most people use a computer for word processing, email and internet access, the amiga can do this with some new software, programmers could write this stuff for the community, linux has no difficulty getting programmers to write open source or free software so why are amiga programmers so mercenary.

[bloodline]

A6000 wrote:
Most people use a computer for word processing, email and internet access, the amiga can do this with some new software,

The Amiga doesn't have these basic apps already, so why should anyone waste their time with it?

programmers could write this stuff for the community, linux has no difficulty getting programmers to write open source or free software so why are amiga programmers so mercenary.

If you can download Linux for free and it comes with everything one needs to do all the basic stuff a user would want to do why bother with the Amiga...?