3G

Nlandas wrote:
Must be the Apple minions are smarter in the UK. The AT&T model is going to charge more for data. Just be sure to read the full contract with the new iPhone.

... and how do you know that, considering neither the phone, nor the plan have been made public yet?

[uncharted]

Nlandas wrote:

Must be the Apple minions are smarter in the UK. The AT&T model is going to charge more for data. Just be sure to read the full contract with the new iPhone.

For f**ks sake, we get it.  You don't like Apple.  You made your point in your first post.  Perhaps an experiment in self-control would be a good idea.

For all the talk of 'Apple minions' and 'Apple Zealots', it seems to me that you are far more rabid in your anti-Apple beliefs.

The fact of the matter is, as far as OSes go, we've come a very long way from the dark days of Windows 98 and Mac OS 8.  There really isn't a huge amount wrong.  Yeah, things don't always work as we would like, but really is everything that big nightmare people make it out to be.  Firing anectdotes about bad experiences of each OS back and forth really doesn't mean dick in the grand scheme of things.  

Some people like Macs, some people like Windows/Linux PC - get the f**k over it.

 :pissed:  Rant Over  :pissed:

[AmigaHeretic]

What nobody here is waiting for Android?

 :eek:
(/me runs and hides)

[Oliver]

amigadave wrote:...
@Oliver
and most people want Apple or Microsoft to control how their computers,...

I agree with what you are saying, and I also think it is a really good design goal to have technology just provide functionality to the user, without the need to control the technology itself. I think this would be great if it actually worked correctly. However, some of the high level behaviour of OSX does not work correctly at all, and has some fundamental errors which should really not occur.

Even this kind of error is tolerable (it is a big system, with ambitious endeavours, and some issues are to be expected), if you can have reasonable low level access to work around the errors. Working around these problems, as usual with the Apple design approach, is rather more difficult than it should be.

Although a lot of praise is given to Apple's user interface designs, I find them difficult to work with, as they don't offer me easy access to the controls I need to use. I really liked the old Amiga approach, where most things worked fairly well at a high level (relative to what was available at the time), and there was also really good low level access to those who wanted it.

This is one major reason why I don't like using OSX.

There are other reasons why I don't like it, but these are more a matter of personal preference.

Overall, I do think their computer products are overpriced, and underperforming, but they provide something which a lot of people are happy to pay for.

I do respect Apple's marketing. Very slick. Again, on a personal note, I just don't like this kind of slick marketing. The marketing is fine, in itself, but I do think real information should be available for those who want it.

As for iPods, I get frequently annoyed by people who think the technology is really innovative. This is probably a really good testament to the success of the marketing. I think iPod's are well made, and very pleasantly simple, which I think is appropriate for that kind of product. The sound quality is pretty good, but I think a little overrated.

My quite limited experience of the iPhone is very positive. I think it's very well designed. Easy to use. For me, the advantage over my dirt cheap Sony Ericsson is very slim.

Anyway, that's just me.

[da9000]

@Oliver:

I don't know HOW you tried using Macs and OSX, but as a hardcore techie, I've found it anything BUT an obstacle to work with them. There's Terminal, and that gives me a gateway to the world of Unix/BSD/XNU/Darwin, and that's just about anything an Amiga and Linux geek could ever ask for.

I'm especially confused about what you say as far as networking protocols, especially in light of the fact that OSX uses 100% openly supported protocols. There's almost NOTHING proprietary other than AFP (Apple File Protocol).

Lastly, almost *all* the hardcore computer geeks in the Silicon Valley (and if that doesn't mean much to you, well then there's no sense in continuing this) are using Macs and OSX. You'd think they'd know something, right?

[da9000]

amigadave wrote:
I agree that Apple products are not for everyone, and particularly not for the geek squad that has the technical smarts to want low level control of every electronic gadget

That's such a myth and IT HAS TO STOP RIGHT NOW. I don't know about you, but I breathe technology everyday, hardcore, and I've not had any problems using OSX and Apple products. Granted the older Mac OS (pre-OSX) wasn't that hacker friendly, but as far as I'm concerned give me Linux or OSX, or even Amiga OS, it's the same thing. Just don't give me Windows. Now *that* makes you jump through some real hoops to tweak to your heart's content (without Cygnus, you're handicapped).

[da9000]

@Oliver:

my previous post to you was for your first post. This is for your second.

Your posts (both) are full of vagaries: you talk about high level features that don't work, but you don't explain which ones you're talking about. Frankly, they ALL work, but you won't accept that. There's a chip somewhere on your shoulder.

However, what I wanted to stress here is something that you and most people who've never used a Mac, always miss, and it's understandable, because if you didn't, you wouldn't be talking (or at least saying what you're saying). HOWEVER, the vast majority of people DON'T MISS IT. They GET IT. Inexplicably you articulated it perfectly, yet you still don't see it.

Here's what they get, and you don't:

Oliver wrote:
I think iPod's are well made, and very pleasantly simple, which I think is appropriate for that kind of product.

It's *REALLY* tough to make something simple, yet good, yet powerful, yet complete. Apple excels at this, and believe me (or anyone): it takes a lot of very hard work and some extremely impressive individuals to achieve this. Not many companies can claim this ability.

And frankly, THAT is what makes their products sell, my friend. Marketing works too, but if the products were crap, they wouldn't sell and have the high satisfaction rates they do:

http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/04/01/iphone-scores-79-in-customer-satisfaction-survey-rim-trails-at-54/

http://www.gadgetell.com/tech/comment/apple-rim-take-top-honors-for-cellphone-satisfaction-palm-pulls-in-the-rear/

(search for key word "satisfaction" in the below link)
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/steve-jobs-keynote-live-from-wwdc-2008/

http://www.vendorrate.com/Vendors/Apple+Inc



And last but not least, developers seem to be invigorated once again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Design_Awards#2008_Winners

I dare you to spend some time looking at the winners of the design awards and their software. You see, good technology inspires good products. This should be vividly familiar to any Amigan who lived the early days of the Amiga and Commodore.

[alexh]

The real cost of a $199 iphone is almost $2000 over 18 months! For a lousy phone? Some people have more money than sense!

Ah... I see. As an Amiga user you are used to paying over the odds for hardware etc. And in a Helsinki syndrome sort of way you feel an on going need to get ripped off... it all becomes clear... the 3G iPhone is an Amiga in disguise, at least from a cost point of view.. interesting. ;-)

[motorollin]

@alexh
That additional cost also gets you unlimited data and more inclusive minutes and text messages than I personally could ever use within a month. There are many, many phones which require you to take out a contract. The iPhone isn't unique in that respect.

--
moto

[bloodline]

motorollin wrote:
@alexh
That additional cost also gets you unlimited data and more inclusive minutes and text messages than I personally could ever use within a month. There are many, many phones which require you to take out a contract. The iPhone isn't unique in that respect.

I couldn't agree with Moto more! My original plan was to buy the iPhone, unlock it, use it on my existing Orange Contract.

But when I looked into the Orange Data Contracts, they were £30 per month with a 30Meg per month limit (on top of my existing £30per month plan)... With O2 I get something like (I forget the asctual figures now) 500 mins and 500 text per month and unlimited Data for £35... and given that I regularly hit 800meg download per month on the iPhone... I thought the O2 deal was pretty good.

I'm dumping Orange at the end of this month and moving my Business account to O2... with, an iPhone 3G :-)

[Oliver]

@da9000

I didn't want to get into specifics, because I didn't want an argument. I guess that didn't work.

As I mentioned, I haven't used OSX a lot, but what I have done with it, I found to be a pain.

I can offer you some specifics if you really would like to hear it. I am definitely not going to bother listing all the problems I have found with Apple products.

Please understand that I am neither anti-Apple, nor pro-Windows. I have found more annoyances with Macintosh products than I would like to pay the Apple price for, and will not be buying any soon. I did wish to point out that the 'it just works' claim is flawed.

[bloodline]

da9000 wrote:

amigadave wrote:
I agree that Apple products are not for everyone, and particularly not for the geek squad that has the technical smarts to want low level control of every electronic gadget

That's such a myth and IT HAS TO STOP RIGHT NOW. I don't know about you, but I breathe technology everyday, hardcore, and I've not had any problems using OSX and Apple products. Granted the older Mac OS (pre-OSX) wasn't that hacker friendly, but as far as I'm concerned give me Linux or OSX, or even Amiga OS, it's the same thing. Just don't give me Windows. Now *that* makes you jump through some real hoops to tweak to your heart's content (without Cygnus, you're handicapped).

I just want to lend my support to da9000 here! I would have to say that Pre OSX the Mac was the worst machine you could use... the OS was clunky, limited, unstable and a real relic of the 80's... Windows95/98 was vastly superior... But with the move to OSX, suddenly Apple gave me a werking stable OS, that was nice and user friendly (as I was used to with Amiga), with a system that didn't need constant maintainance... Plus I also got all the Unix tools I had become accustomed to with Linux...

I never really got networking to work properly with Windows (it was a case to trying eveything until something worked and then never touching it again), but never had a problem in Linux or OSX (networking is a breeze in OSX 10.4 and 10.5).

When Apple moved to intel CPUs finally they became competitive... Something Apple has never been before.

-Edit- The "It just works" holds true as a Professional Music user... All my various bit of Hardware and Software work perfectly without the near endless config one must do when using a Windows machine... Also as a home user who really doesn't want to mess around, but wants to switch on, and do something productive... it also works perfectly. Apple have got the user experience right... and that is what you pay for...

If you've not used OSX 10.4 (I'm not so impressed 10.5 yet :-) ) on an intel Mac then you might not have had such a good experience... but the modern machines are great :-)

[odin]

A friend of mine has an IPhone and yes, the interface is nice and it's as slick as a freshly buttered willy entering a horny woman, but it's still too big a willy for my liking.

I'm happy with my new Nokia =).

alexh wrote:
The real cost of a $199 iphone is almost $2000 over 18 months! For a lousy phone? Some people have more money than sense!

I don't understand your logic at all.  Are you, or are you not going to have a cellphone during that same 24 months?  Most of us have resigned ourselves to the fact that we will always have a cellphone bill.  For some, like myself, I use it as my only phone, so your logic is flawed.

Over the next two years, I will always have a cellphone, and it's generally cheaper to have a phone under contract than a "go-phone" (pre-paid or monthly without contract) type, so where exactly am I losing my senses?

If you buy any cellphone, you can't count the cost of the contract, because if you're like 99% of us, you'll have a contract anyway, meaning that even if you get a "free" phone, it still costs you the same amount during the two years.

I'm just electing to buy a $200 "better phone" than get the freebie they give away with a contract.

Wayne

[alexh]

motorollin wrote:
There are many, many phones which require you to take out a contract. The iPhone isn't unique in that respect.

But you can get a decent contract for 1/3rd the price of an iPhone contract.

In the UK for example you can get a free handset + 200 mins (to any network) + 200 txts per month for £10 ($20) per month.

[Colani1200]

Wayne wrote:

Are you, or are you not going to have a cellphone during that same 24 months?

That's a good question indeed. What happens if you loose this hi-tech-musthave-shiny-geek-phallus-symbol or if it gets stolen (not that unlikely in 24 months)?