Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s

[Raffaele]

B00tDisk wrote:

Raffaele wrote:

But it is still true that ONLY THE AMIGA it is the only 20 years old hardware+software system capable (with decent Accelerator, graphic card, and Audio Card [Maybe PCI-BUS based]) to be still productive to write documents, browse internet and get mail and FTP (without be harassed from viruses), and to listen music, and good enough for painting and image retouching too...

I've got a closet full of Mac systems from about 1989 onward that would like to disagree with you.

Macintosh OS upto version 9 it is the most ugly Operating System ever written...

Upto version 7 it is full of bugs and it is heavily hacked by Apple developers to keep all the system up and running.

There is a document somewhere on internet (if the site is still up... I don't know), publishing the true witness of developers of Fusion Mac-Amiga emulator (or èerhaps was it Emplant emulator??? I vaguely remember it).

They disassembled MacOS and found it full of spaghetti code.

And regard any other machine I used at University Macintoshes with PPC 600 MHz CPU and MacOS 9...

And I never seen an OS lesser responsible than Macintosh...

Believe me... It should be a very ugly OS such an OS that makes the PPC CPU to seat down...

In comparison even a 200 MHz ancient Amiga accelerator card gives the same response feeling than a 600 MHz Macintosh...

And it is not a problem of hardware....

Hardware of Macintoshes was almost perfect... It was just all OSs previous than MacOS X hat are bad written and very low performing...

But MacOS X does not enter the competition... It is just FreeBSD (to gain stability, reliability and multitasking) hacked with macintosh interface GUI.

[Raffaele]

Sig999 wrote:

Raffaele wrote:

But it is still true that ONLY THE AMIGA it is the only 20 years old hardware+software system capable (with decent Accelerator, graphic card, and Audio Card [Maybe PCI-BUS based])

But after you've added all that stuff - it's not really all 20 year old hardware - is it?  If you're going to say '20 year old hardware/software - then strip it down to that and go for it.  Otherwise it's just a fallacious comment.

 to be still productive to write documents, browse internet and get mail and FTP (without be harassed from viruses), and to listen music, and good enough for painting and image retouching too...

Piss off yourself.


[/quote]

Don't make a fool of yourself...

1) Any Amiga accelerator card it is not produced after 1996...

So even the PPC acclerator cards in Amiga have 12 years on their shoulders...

2) Amiga can mount modern PCI graphic card, and sound card...

No your stupid Acurn Athari and Macinzozz built upto 1992 could mount modern PCI cards.

Only the Amiga has enough manufacturers to create such beautiful BUS extenders like Prometheus and mount modern PCI card, USB 2.0, etrcetera and still being productive with software built upto 1999...

Because Amiga software was far superior in its ages that it could still be used with profit.

Oh... and even a 68030 Amiga with 50 MHz is still productive...

And it emulates classic Macintosh better than Macintosh real hardware...

With the difference that a 68030/50 Amiga is still being usable, while ancient 68030/50 Macintoshes are so sloooooooow and so poor responsive that they seats on their ass.  

[Raffaele]

bloodline wrote:

Just off the top of my head I can run Netscape Navigator on a stone age 68k Mac... that's better than the Amiga.. sadly... :-(

Now your statements are a bit gratuitous...

Sure you used Macintosh Machines, and it is obvious that in the age of 68K machines these Mac machines were far more expensive than any Amiga, but have also many, many RAM onboard as standard feature that let them run Netscape Navigator far better than any Amiga could run its browsers...

In that Age, Amiga abandoned its first browser, Amiga Mosaic, that was enhanced far more than original Mosaic, and switched to programs like Ibrowse, AWeb, Voyager, that were still BETA software full of bugs...

Also Netscape Navigator was supported with a robust team of developers, while Amiga browsers were maintaned by little teams.

To make you an example

I have all issues of italian magazine "Enigma Amiga"...

In these historical issues of this magazine (upto 1994/1996 there are well explained how to install Macintosh emulator on Amiga, go on Apple stores and buy the original MacOS, and then install it on the emulated Macintosh, because Office for Mac and Internet browsers for Mac were better than Amiga counterparts...

But it is still true that Amiga with enough RAM and decent CPUs could emulate the Mac, better than any real Macintosh Hardware and make these browsers run far better than real Mac.

Again then when Amiga browsers evolved, then they surpassed Netscape Navigator in many camps...

All over the internet there are testimoniances of people that could affirm that Voyager on Amiga, with enough RAM and a decent processor, it is a very pleasant and unsurpassed experience, more satisfying than any other browser on any platform...

Unfortunately Voyager development was stopped and it could manage only HTML 3.2 without CSS...

Also Netscape Navigator is officially dead...

So we could not see any actual match of performances involving these two browsers in a leal competition.

[Sig999]

Raffaele wrote:

Don't make a fool of yourself...

1) Any Amiga accelerator card it is not produced after 1996...

So even the PPC acclerator cards in Amiga have 12 years on their shoulders...

2) Amiga can mount modern PCI graphic card, and sound card...

No your stupid Acurn Athari and Macinzozz built upto 1992 could mount modern PCI cards.

Only the Amiga has enough manufacturers to create such beautiful BUS extenders like Prometheus and mount modern PCI card, USB 2.0, etrcetera and still being productive with software built upto 1999...

Because Amiga software was far superior in its ages that it could still be used with profit.

Oh... and even a 68030 Amiga with 50 MHz is still productive...

And it emulates classic Macintosh better than Macintosh real hardware...

With the difference that a 68030/50 Amiga is still being usable, while ancient 68030/50 Macintoshes are so sloooooooow and so poor responsive that they seats on their ass.  

Ah... so when you say 20 years - you really meant 12 years?

As for Mac's - I wouldn't know, nor really care - I don't own one - I meantioned the names of the computers that were around at the time that also did what you said.

But I do have to ask - if the PC sucks so hard and all - and the 20 year hardware is so fantastic... why do you want to mount a PCI card again? It kind of goes against the grain of your zealotry dont you think?

As for productivity.. well, I could argue that daisy chaining 6 together and using them as a boat anchor is productive.. there's productivity, and then theres productivity ya know?  Exactly WHAT tasks can you do right now that can't be done better, faster, cheaper?

I'm curious.

[Raffaele]

Sig999 wrote:

Raffaele wrote:

Don't make a fool of yourself...

1) Any Amiga accelerator card it is not produced after 1996...

So even the PPC acclerator cards in Amiga have 12 years on their shoulders...

2) Amiga can mount modern PCI graphic card, and sound card...

No your stupid Acurn Athari and Macinzozz built upto 1992 could mount modern PCI cards.

Only the Amiga has enough manufacturers to create such beautiful BUS extenders like Prometheus and mount modern PCI card, USB 2.0, etrcetera and still being productive with software built upto 1999...

Because Amiga software was far superior in its ages that it could still be used with profit.

Oh... and even a 68030 Amiga with 50 MHz is still productive...

And it emulates classic Macintosh better than Macintosh real hardware...

With the difference that a 68030/50 Amiga is still being usable, while ancient 68030/50 Macintoshes are so sloooooooow and so poor responsive that they seats on their ass.  

Ah... so when you say 20 years - you really meant 12 years?

What part of: "Classic Amiga Hardware has 20 years and even latest acclerator card made for Amiga are 12 years old!" you do not understood?  :roll:

[Sig999]

Raffaele wrote:

Again then when Amiga browsers evolved, then they surpassed Netscape Navigator in many camps...

crap. and I've used plenty - Amosaic, Voyager, Ibrowse, Aweb.. every one I could find from 1997 - 2002, on the real machine, on emulators, on amithlon... and I can honestly say that not a one surpassed it.

And this knowing full well that Netscape was a bloated piece of poop.

All over the internet there are testimoniances of people that could affirm that Voyager on Amiga, with enough RAM and a decent processor, it is a very pleasant and unsurpassed experience, more satisfying than any other browser on any platform...

crap.  I used it, and have to say even Konqueror (same time frame) did a better job.

I think you should look up 'unsurpassed' I don't think it means what you think it does.

I'm sorry - but I'm hard pushed to find a single factual reference in your entire post - now we're just pushing into the grounds of lunacy.

The Ami was NEVER that good at using the WWW - it was on the outs even then.. there were many things it was at one time great at.... however this is getting really close to the 'FIHMA' stories.

[Sig999]

Raffaele wrote:

What part of: "Classic Amiga Hardware has 20 years and even latest acclerator card made for Amiga are 12 years old!" you do not understood?  :roll:

Then you should have said '20 year old hardware...oh and this 12 year old hardware..oh and a couple of PCI cards made for the machine I loathe'

*shrug*

But that's pretty typical so I see - making your argument then changing your parameters after someone says 'hey..that's bull'

lets once again see what you wrote:

But it is still true that ONLY THE AMIGA it is the only 20 years old hardware+software system capable (with decent Accelerator, graphic card, and Audio Card [Maybe PCI-BUS based])

it's like a fine print disclaimer on the commercials I edit (that always make me laugh)

I could say ONLY c64 (with maybe a few modern add ons made in the last 10 years)....

[persia]

Yep, it says a lot that the game the song is about doesn't run on the Amiga...

taunusand wrote:

Good amiga video that says a lot: link to youtube

I can't say anything about mac, I have newer had the chance to use one  :-?

[Sig999]

persia wrote:
Yep, it says a lot that the game the song is about doesn't run on the Amiga...

and edited on a mac.....

Not detracting from it - Eric makes some top notch animations, but in that context, yeah, I had a giggle too.

[bloodline]

Raffaele wrote:

Sig999 wrote:

Ah... so when you say 20 years - you really meant 12 years?

What part of: "Classic Amiga Hardware has 20 years and even latest acclerator card made for Amiga are 12 years old!" you do not understood?  :roll:

Yes, but as soon as you add that 12 year old Accelerator card and that 10 year old PCI bus board and that 8 year old PCI-GFX card and that 9 year old PCI-SoundCard and that 5 year old PCI-USB card... the machine you are talking about is not 20 years old anymore...

[bloodline]

Raffaele wrote:

bloodline wrote:

Just off the top of my head I can run Netscape Navigator on a stone age 68k Mac... that's better than the Amiga.. sadly... :-(

Now your statements are a bit gratuitous...

Are they?

Sure you used Macintosh Machines, and it is obvious that in the age of 68K machines these Mac machines were far more expensive than any Amiga, but have also many, many RAM onboard as standard feature that let them run Netscape Navigator far better than any Amiga could run its browsers...

The cost of the machine wasn't part of your statement... But you could buy a highend Amiga with similar specs to a Mac for around the same price, at that time.

In that Age, Amiga abandoned its first browser, Amiga Mosaic, that was enhanced far more than original Mosaic, and switched to programs like Ibrowse, AWeb, Voyager, that were still BETA software full of bugs...

Does this paragraph support or weaken your argument? I appreaciate English may not be your first language, and I'm having difficulty understanding.

Also Netscape Navigator was supported with a robust team of developers, while Amiga browsers were maintaned by little teams.

And...? That was never in question, you asked "what 20 year old machine would be more productive than an Amiga"... we have given examples.

To make you an example

I have all issues of italian magazine "Enigma Amiga"...

In these historical issues of this magazine (upto 1994/1996 there are well explained how to install Macintosh emulator on Amiga, go on Apple stores and buy the original MacOS, and then install it on the emulated Macintosh, because Office for Mac and Internet browsers for Mac were better than Amiga counterparts...

So 20 years ago the Mac had better software than the Amiga had 20 years ago... fine...

But it is still true that Amiga with enough RAM and decent CPUs could emulate the Mac, better than any real Macintosh Hardware and make these browsers run far better than real Mac.

No they couldn't... the Amiga display hardware was awful at running Mac Apps, most of them expected 16bit displays... and if I ran my Amiga with 256 colours the SErial port couldn't handle the speed of a 33Kbps modem... or even 14.4Kbps for that matter... all the Bus time was used up by the display...

Again then when Amiga browsers evolved, then they surpassed Netscape Navigator in many camps...

No, the last Nascape that runs on a 68k Mac is still better tan any Amiga browser I have on my Amigas...

All over the internet there are testimoniances of people that could affirm that Voyager on Amiga, with enough RAM and a decent processor, it is a very pleasant and unsurpassed experience, more satisfying than any other browser on any platform...

Unfortunately Voyager development was stopped and it could manage only HTML 3.2 without CSS...

I have Voyager 3... it was pretty good, nothing compared with Netscape though...

Also Netscape Navigator is officially dead...

So is the Amiga...

So we could not see any actual match of performances involving these two browsers in a leal competition.

now or 12 years ago when both were in developement?

[Roj]

If I didn't have a CSPPC, I probably wouldn't still be using an Amiga. I don't really think a stock Amiga can be given a place in the modern computing world - 00s. An expanded/upgraded Amiga, though, is a different story. It may not be able to run much of anything a PC can, and it creates a challenge to find ways to get the output generated by an Amiga into the mainstream, but it's certainly possible.

Just about any time I sit down to do a project, I first try to work out how the Amiga can get it done. Most of the time I don't even involve the PC. The Amiga has just enough to make it work. On the occasions the Amiga can't cope, I start with the PC. And almost invariably, frustration sets in because the PC wants to fight the way I work. I still get work done, but without that warm fuzzy feeling, y'know?


Amiga - The Pleasure is Worth the Pain

[Raffaele]

bloodline wrote:

Yes, but as soon as you add that 12 year old Accelerator card and that 10 year old PCI bus board and that 8 year old PCI-GFX card and that 9 year old PCI-SoundCard and that 5 year old PCI-USB card... the machine you are talking about is not 20 years old anymore...

Excuse my poor english But in Amiga you can use ancient Picasso96 cards still 20 years old, or even add EL-CHEAPO PCI graphic card that are 5 years old...

I do not see a crime in this...

Still it is only 1992 computer that can mount internal modern PCI Cards with BUS expander...

Also do not make silly statements attempting to confusing readers...

20 years old motherboard it is still 20 years old motherboard...

You can't change this fact...

[bloodline]

Raffaele wrote:

Sig999 wrote:

Raffaele wrote:

But it is still true that ONLY THE AMIGA it is the only 20 years old hardware+software system capable (with decent Accelerator, graphic card, and Audio Card [Maybe PCI-BUS based])

But after you've added all that stuff - it's not really all 20 year old hardware - is it?  If you're going to say '20 year old hardware/software - then strip it down to that and go for it.  Otherwise it's just a fallacious comment.

 to be still productive to write documents, browse internet and get mail and FTP (without be harassed from viruses), and to listen music, and good enough for painting and image retouching too...

Piss off yourself.

I have an old PowerMac 7600, a machine introduced in 1996... it has better CPU, GFX and audio than any Amiga of the same time... plus microsoft office, photoshop, various cad programs, internet explorer and Netscape etc... it's much more useful than an Amgia of the same time... in fact the Architects firm that I got if from only stopepd using it last year... :-o

[bloodline]

Raffaele wrote:

bloodline wrote:

Yes, but as soon as you add that 12 year old Accelerator card and that 10 year old PCI bus board and that 8 year old PCI-GFX card and that 9 year old PCI-SoundCard and that 5 year old PCI-USB card... the machine you are talking about is not 20 years old anymore...

Excuse my poor english

Your English is very good, but I fear you might not be able to express yourself as best/subtly you want.

But in Amiga you can use ancient Picasso96 cards still 20 years old, or even add EL-CHEAPO PCI graphic card that are 5 years old...

I do not see a crime in this...

Still it is only 1992 computer that can mount internal modern PCI Cards with BUS expander...

Also do not make silly statements attempting to confusing readers...

20 years old motherboard it is still 20 years old motherboard...

You can't change this fact...

But that motherboard is providing little more than a few timing signals from the CIAs, ROM access and power (or not if the PCI bus is powered). The real motherboard is the CPU Card + PCI board... the Amiga has been relegated to a Clock and ROM Dongle...

[Sig999]

Raffaele wrote:

Excuse my poor english But in Amiga you can use ancient Picasso96 cards still 20 years old, or even add EL-CHEAPO PCI graphic card that are 5 years old...

I do not see a crime in this...

Still it is only 1992 computer that can mount internal modern PCI Cards with BUS expander...

Also do not make silly statements attempting to confusing readers...

20 years old motherboard it is still 20 years old motherboard...

You can't change this fact...

I never said I could - but it that isn't what you originally stated.  You mentioned being productive and using the web and FTP and writing documents and fixing images... well all those things could be done with other computers at the same time, which means that they can STILL do these things - on their existing hardware.

So, you original statement is false... not only from a hardware standpoint - but also from a software standpoint (which you also mentioned - 20 year old hardware/software)

From a software standpoint the '20 year' (which btw would be 1988) is invention too.  When did Amosaic come out? 1996ish?
Amitcp 1993ish?

Again, the Ami did some wonderful things in it's hayday that other computers COULDN'T do.. for instance when it came out the PC was using 16 colors and the Mac at the time, even though it had a gui interface was using 2.

Inventing stuff detracts from the machines very real accomplishments and makes you look foolish.