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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #89 from previous page: May 22, 2008, 02:00:48 AM »
Sorry, but you must have the dates mixed up. In 1994 Intel was still trying to get the original Pentium to do better than 90MHz and Microsoft was desperately attempting to get Windows 95 to be Windows 94... I actually wish I had a quality-built PC from back then, because as you know if you've ever tried to write an OS for a modern PC, that was just about the end of being able to use old-school assembler tactics on an IBM-compatible. (I wrote a boot-loader/screen pager a few years ago for the early AMD 64-bit systems and was aghast at how many instructions it took just to read a text file off disk and write it to the screen with line wrapping and scrolling...my AT hardware reference manual became a relic around the time we are speaking of..)
 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2008, 02:02:50 AM »
Quote

stefcep2 wrote:

Not meaning to offend, but there are over 80 posts here highlighting the benefits of the Amiga operating environment over other systems.  We are not talking about the lack of new hardware or software, but the concepts.  If you want to see what AmigaOS might be like on new hardware, try Winuae.  See how quickly it boots, how quickly it lists window contents, how quickly applications start, how smooth the multitasking is, all the while its actually emulating a foreign instruction set.  Why does outlook take longer to fetch my email than YAM under Winuae and under my A4000? Imagine if it were running native code: your PC would fly.  Here are some of the advantages:

1. 5 sec boot.
2. Amiga RDB/Assign command
3. Wonderfully smooth preemptive mutitasking
4. Highly configurable GUI
5. Datatypes
6. Arexx
7. Shell
8. Multiple screens, each with their own color depth and resolution.
9. Highly efficient RAM and hard drive usage.
10. Graphics and sound co-processors with their own DMA, leaving the CPU to act independently on house keeping tasks, ensuring that you always have a responsive GUI.
11. Autoconfig
12. RAM: disk


Please, include:

13. Screen dragging
14. Superbitmap screens in Workbench
15. Locale   :-D
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2008, 02:13:01 AM »
 :crazy:  D'Oh 2004 damnit, 2004!!!
 

Offline sdyates

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2008, 02:27:38 AM »
I don't take any offense at all. I have a large collection of amigas and videos, but I would still disagree.

1) it is actually more like 10 seconds, but hey, that is a great amount of time - given nothing else is loaded. My A3000 used to take 20 seconds with everything loaded. My current mac takes about 30 seconds.

2) cool for sure, but unix and linux have the same functionality

3) smooth yes, but unstable due to memory management. I still think mac gets the nod here.

4) Unix and linux based variants have this: including mac.

5) not too familiar with these other than I just use them from time to time.

6) never got into this, so once again I am ignorant on this one

7) Shell, again, linux, unix, mac -- can run with gui

8) Ok, I wish this was possible with other oses -- still very cool for the amiga - but spaces and screens for unix and linux and mac is a nice tradoff-- amiga still way cooler.

9) efficient ram, but then again, it has many issues with memory protection.

10) all modern system have a multitude of co-processors where the cpu is not dependant.

11) unix and linux do well here

12) mac has it through image files.

By the way, I would never compare Windows to Amiga. Windows still has a lot to steal from the Amiga!
1 x A500, Hi-toro 4000 :)
1 iMac OSx, 1 Mac Mini
1 Wintel 03 svr

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Offline persia

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2008, 02:30:15 AM »
You know what's neat?  Install OS X, hook a firewire cable and copy all applications, settings and documents automatically!
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Offline amigadave

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2008, 02:38:29 AM »
Quote

sdyates wrote:
Other than boot-time, I can't see how it is better than other OSes. The lack of new hardware is a big issue.

I still enjoy running my Amigas, but I'd say the baton has been passed on some years ago.


Is it really the lack of hardware that is holding the Amiga back today???

We have WinUAE that allows us to run on almost any new computer manufactured today, as I believe that MS still has a stranglehold on the market and the vast majority of computers come with some version of Windows already installed on them.

What is holding the Amiga back today is a lack of general interest and an overwhelming lack of programmers working on an updated version of AmigaOS (the real AmigaOS used with WinUAE, not AROS which does not run any of the thousands of Amiga applications) AND no new applications for the real AmigaOS.

Many people say that OS4 is the real AmigaOS, but is it really?  I think that MorphOS is just as close to having that same claim as it runs as much or more Amiga applications as fast or faster than OS4, so all OS4 has is the name.  I am not trying to really knock OS4, it was a valiant effort that sadly took too long and now has no hardware support.  WinUAE works every where.  

I think I am more likely to support further work on OS3.9 and applications/games that run on it, than any other direction.  Have all of you looked at AmiKit, AmigaSYS, AIAB, etc.

I have only really spent time with AmiKit, which is a GREAT piece of work.  Really great!

I know that my Classic Amigas will be stuck in time and can only do so much, but I will continue using them as long as they continue to fire up.  But a lot of my future work and Amiga enjoyment I hope will be on a much faster Amiga through emulation with new applications and games that may, or may not, only run on that emulated Amiga, but that is okay.

Sorry, but I just think that OS4 is a dead end unless by some miracle it becomes Amithlon and is ported to x86 and x86-64bit.  But that won't happen because there is no money to pay for such a tremendous task.  Look at how slowly AROS has come along and still what can you do with it?
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline murple

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2008, 08:24:50 AM »
The Amiga is still superior to other computers of the early 1990s. I wouldn't say it's superior to modern computers... and anybody who claims it is probably has to be considered a religious fanatic. If they'd survive, I suspect a modern Amiga would be much better to other modern computers, but that didn't happen.

As much as I love my Amigas and 8 bit Commodores, and even my old TI99/4a, if I need to do real work, surf the net, listen to music, etc, I use my Linux PC.
 

Offline murple

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2008, 08:26:56 AM »
Also, the problems you're having... maybe consider Linux or (I say this grudgingly) a Mac. Linux has gotten much more user friendly, and is dramatically more reliable.

It stores files and directories as inodes (ID numbers, in a way) so hey, it's even got that feature!
 

Offline Jpan1

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #97 on: May 22, 2008, 09:05:26 AM »
Well,
For me it was the cheese wedge design, and cream colour casing. Most PC are silver and grey nowadays.
It still rocks with its ease of use, and that Amiga OS takes a couple of second to boot up, rather than an  is eternity.
The feeling that you could access directories and files easily with no 'hidden' programmes running in the background. The archticture and design is fine and effiecient, and multitasking is great on the Amiga.
It's way more fun to use, and i hope Amiga will get made again, once the technology becomes innovative and chip/processor manufactures work on design, architcture rather than speed, dual core, quad core etc..! Simplicity and style is key :-)
 

Offline AmiDelf

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2008, 11:30:10 AM »
Today Amiga wins on:

1. Fast boot
2. Better screen-handling (switching etc...)
3. GUI can be adjusted as you wish
4. Nice looking systems! Its more personal
5. Great multitasking while playing games. No lagg

I have to say that the pokal goes to Magic User Interface and MorphOS of all these OS's. ReAction is nice, but MUI makes the system looks so much better. MorphOS v1.4.5 is pretty stable once hardware is stable :) Boots fast, have AmigaOS 68k support and more. I cant tell of how AmigaOS4 works, as I've only seen it on gatherings and meetings.

World is made by people who have money and marketing skills. Without marketing skills, there is simply hard to get out. Sega and its Dreamcast is an example after Commodore went down. Everyone knew that Dreamcast was better than Playstation 2 in every way. But SEGA forgot to add a DVD drive, which made Dreamcast suffer. As Playstation 2 was promoted as a cheap DVD-player in Japan. Its all about marketing and not loose community. Talking with them is important. Now as Amiga Inc. are totally silent. They arent trusted anymore. I would love to see AmigaOS4 for Acubes PPC motherboards. I wish that the future was brighter for Amiga. It really deserves a better future. Just SEE how MANY users STILL uses THIS damn GOOD hardware AND operating SYSTEMS made BY Commodore. It MUST be A good THING!... And the only one actually talking with the community, though he has his history is Bill Buck. Everyone else is silent.

ELBOX
Hyperion
Amiga Inc.
Acube (sorry, but I havent seen anyone posting from that company on Amiga websites yet...)

Well,... Amiga is superior in everyway for a home computing experience. I just wish that it would be taken more seriouselly  by its owners.


Regards,
Mike
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Offline persia

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2008, 12:33:13 PM »
1. Because it doesn't support more than 25% of what modern OS's support.
2. Really?  So it can switch between 4 pages of 1600x1200 screens at the push of a mouse?  Display a picture of all currently running apps and allow you to choose between them?
3. I can make Linux, OS X and even MSWindows look pretty much how I want them to look, including a retro Amiga style.
4. Maybe because nobody else has them...  Don't quite get your point.
5. Every OS multitasks today, they all are pre-emptive with memory protection.  I've had apps crash and burn and calmly go to the Apple menu, click on force quit and they are gone.

Let's be realistic, it's retro computing, it's like restoring and driving old cars, it's not about superiority.  It's a hobby, it's fun, but in the end we still use the people mover to pick up kids from soccer, not the model t...

Quote

AmiDelf wrote:
Today Amiga wins on:

1. Fast boot
2. Better screen-handling (switching etc...)
3. GUI can be adjusted as you wish
4. Nice looking systems! Its more personal
5. Great multitasking while playing games. No lagg

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Offline stefcep2

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #100 on: May 22, 2008, 03:20:43 PM »
Quote

persia wrote:
1. Because it doesn't support more than 25% of what modern OS's support.
2. Really?  So it can switch between 4 pages of 1600x1200 screens at the push of a mouse?  Display a picture of all currently running apps and allow you to choose between them?
3. I can make Linux, OS X and even MSWindows look pretty much how I want them to look, including a retro Amiga style.
4. Maybe because nobody else has them...  Don't quite get your point.
5. Every OS multitasks today, they all are pre-emptive with memory protection.  I've had apps crash and burn and calmly go to the Apple menu, click on force quit and they are gone.

Let's be realistic, it's retro computing, it's like restoring and driving old cars, it's not about superiority.  It's a hobby, it's fun, but in the end we still use the people mover to pick up kids from soccer, not the model t...

Quote

AmiDelf wrote:
Today Amiga wins on:

1. Fast boot
2. Better screen-handling (switching etc...)
3. GUI can be adjusted as you wish
4. Nice looking systems! Its more personal
5. Great multitasking while playing games. No lagg



1. list the 75% of the functions at the operating system level that the Amiga doesn't support, or couldn't support if someone bothered to write it, due to a fundamental design flaw.  Nothing, absolutely nothing: as I've said give me firefox, acrobat some dvd codecs and players and I won't need the bloated crap that is Windows, Macosx or Linux.

2.  thats a native graphics hardware limitation. under cgx4 on my A4000 68060 with CV64 i can do 1024x768 screen switching thats damned quick, never tried any higher resolutions. if i had faster video ram, it would be faster still. under winuae 1280x1024 is very fast to switch, almost instantaneous

3.  yeah but is it as easy as mui, and do you end up with a  consistent look and feel?

4. irrelevant personal aesthetics

5.  Ah but there is pre-emptive multitasking and there is pre-emptive multitasking.  It depends on the scheduler.  linux's implementation is rubbish for desktops: read this  http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm

As for Windows, well yeah it multitasks nicely if you give it two or more cpu's running at 3 ghz each with 2 gig or more ram; oh and it will still find a way to use the swap file on the hard drive.  why do you think intel/microsoft is pushing multicore cpu with their "do more" campaign-because multitasking is now becoming a mainstream concept and they couldn't make it happen well enough with 3 ghz 1 gig ram machines.  Laughable.

To this day no mainstream system multitasks as smoothly as the Amiga.  Try it under emulation with the brute power of todays processors, even as the cpu is translating 68k code to x86 code, and see how you NEVER have to wait for a window to be active, for the mouse pointer to move, how quickly software starts, no matter what is running in the background.

Memory protection crashing I grant you is an issue, but only rarely these days, and i think amikit has some third party thing that gives partial memory protection that seems to stop other crashing software taking the system with it.  if you save regularly, data loss is minimal, and with boot in 5 sec, time loss is minimal.  But you are right.
 

Offline AmiDelf

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #101 on: May 22, 2008, 03:26:53 PM »
You can have as many screens as you want in an AmigaOS/MorphOS enviroment. Ive had over 20 1680x1050 screens open at once without problems.

Normally I have 6-7 screens open. Depending on the mood.

1. System with AmiNetRadio + Wookiechat etc
2. Sputnik
3. AmiTradeCenter
4. TvPaint
5. fXpaint
6. Blender

You also have images of all running programs by leftclicking switchbutton in upper-right corner.

MUI lets you customize this as you want. I really enjoy using AmigaOS compared to Windows, Linux or Unix.

Also another thing. To change icons, the tidy system etc. You know why things are as they are. You have the control over it,... :) you dont need to read 1000 pages book to use it neither. AmigaOS/MorphOS is how home computing should have been.

So, for me. I havent found any other OS for home computing that can match MorphOS. It feels different and is really great.






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Offline LoadWB

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2008, 04:55:16 PM »
The Windows swap file gets used for a number of good reasons, and a few bad.  Primarily, it gets used because each running program is given a 4GB space in which to work (technically, that's 2GB for program 2GB for system in Win32.)  That's virtual space for obvious reasons.  Hence, the swap file gets used.
 

Offline Fats

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2008, 04:55:23 PM »
Quote

stefcep2 wrote:

5.  Ah but there is pre-emptive multitasking and there is pre-emptive multitasking.  It depends on the scheduler.  linux's implementation is rubbish for desktops: read this  http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm


Please don't take this rant of a frustrated kernel developer as thruth. I play music all the time on my centos 4.7 box with a PIV 1.7GHz without any hick ups, even when two or three program are taking all the CPU time they can.

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Re: What still makes Amiga superior today?
« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2008, 05:49:54 PM »
CentOS happens to be the Linux distribution I prefer to use (probably because I got used to it in the workplace). However, I find it has a number of flaws (which probably apply to most linux distros).

The first I will address is the X Window System. This is an antique system which is only still useful today because of the extraordinary care that went into its design. It has many nice features, and is highly customizable. But it is absolutely awful for use by the ordinary user. Configuring it initially is and always had been a klunky process involving editing text files.

Linux has, I'll admit, made some advances in making this simpler, but every time I install it, I find myself having to pull up tcsh and fix it. I could not imagine recommending it to anyone who does not have a knowledgeable person available to them on an ongoing basis due to this issue alone.

The system configuration utilities are not up to snuff; an example of this is the Samba configuration utility that ships with CentOS (maybe this is fixed now, I haven't booted my ibm x345 in a month or so) does not allow you to configure the access control properly (it just 'forgets' the input) and thus doesn't let you set up Samba graphically. Once again, I'm using vi to edit text files to make it work. Obviously, this is a major p.i.t.a. to me, but not such a big deal - but to someone who has other computers that they wish to have interact with the Linux system, it is a show stopper.

A great feature of Linux is the ability to build your own kernel so as to eliminate unneeded functionality and enable that which is called for. Perhaps you would like Linux to use more than one CPU because that's what you have? Well, the kernel that ships with CentOS doesn't have SMP enabled, so start installing development tools! I think this affects multi-core use as well, because I have a dual P4 xeon box (four cores on two chips) and only one core was seen by the stock kernel. Maybe you could get lucky and find an SMP kernel on the net that will be compatible with your system, maybe...

Multi-tasking under Linux is great, of course, and memory protection is pretty good as well. Until you run an application that wants to use an amount of ram equal to more than your physical ram... in that case, you had better not try to run a screensaver! Why? Because the screensaver will swap in and out to run, and so will your application, and neither will get any CPU time because the PC is stupidly too busy swapping them at a higher priority than any user-land program can ever have.

I have encountered this myself while running perl scripts and attempting to process too much data. So turn the screensaver off, you say? Well, that's not the only thing that tries to run periodically. You _could_ sit there and trim your system down by editing the rc scripts for an hour, but again, I'm stuck using vi to fix the problem. This is not a viable solution for end users, at all - only for programmers and other technologically inclined types.

I could go on like this for pages; but I think I have already bored some of you to tears. It's a simple fact that Linux is fundamentally a vintage operating system that has been maintained well enough to still perform alright - but just alright. It can be considered one of the best operating systems for PCs (alongside of Free/Net/OpenBSD, which are sadly ignored by most people despite being more stable and, imho, easier to understand than Linux) but that does not make it a good desktop OS, just a viable one.

I would really like to see a new operating system (preferably based on an object-oriented paradigm) that can be used on intel systems. It would be nice if it was simple enough for an end user and powerful enough that developers would produce apps for it. But I know why it's pretty much unlikely: the PC is so poorly designed (it's a hatchet job for the sake of backwards compatibility that is no longer needed) that it has become a daunting task to be able to do hardware level programming.

15 years ago, everyone I knew who programmed at all messed about with the hardware directly at least once in a while, if only to better their understanding of it. These days, I don't know any developers who give a rat's a** about hardware programming unless they are paid to develop that type of code.

I applaud the linux developers for anteing up and developing an OS for the PC at all; I just wish it had been designed to be usable by everyone.