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Offline redrumloa

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #14 from previous page: April 03, 2008, 08:10:45 PM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
Towards the end of Matay you could buy the Prometheus at $99! Now it's $198... My how the $ has fallen over the last few years.


I don't know about $99, that probably never happened. I think the lowest I ever sold them for was $149 (from memory) on a 1 time liquidation. I had the final stock and what little remained I sold to Amigakit.
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Offline redrumloa

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2008, 08:13:17 PM »
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alexh wrote:
The A4000Di is a more aesthetically pleasing product in that it replaces the daughter card, the PCI cards are a nice fit (The Prometheus design is stoopid) but the Mediator doesn't have any video slots so you cannot fit a scandoubler which doesn't clip over the chips :-(


I have to strongly disagree! For a tower conversion the Prometheus as-is from the factor kicked butt! Even in a desktop I used 2 PCI and had 2 zorro in use, plus you don't lose your video slot. BTW yes I mean desktop with the case closed. Very easy to do! I was the first to do it, which is surprising given how simple it is.
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Offline redrumloa

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2008, 08:18:51 PM »
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Trev wrote:
Whatever you buy, buy it based on what's available today. Do not expect updates or feature enhancements. Elbox appears to be actively developing at the moment, but support for the other busboard solutions is effectively dead and who knows whether or not Elbox will follow through with their announcements.


yes, base it on what is available. However don't say development is dead. A couple years ago Catweasel MK4 drivers were made for Prometheus, not Mediator, and just recently sound card drivers were made available with OS4 Classic. You can fill every slot in the Prometheus if you want.
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Offline redrumloa

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2008, 08:22:55 PM »
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jiffydos wrote:
 The prometheus cards aren't meant for the desktop cases.  It may work, but I want to be able to close it all up neat.  


Ahem..

http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2383

 :-o
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Offline zipper

Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2008, 08:52:22 PM »
With a little fiddling my RBM/Prometheus-fitted A4000 has 4 PCI and 7 Zorro slots free...well, just 2 + 1 of them are used (+ CVPPC on CSPPC if wanted). But if I want, I can choose from 5 GFX cards...
 

Offline doctorq

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2008, 09:32:47 PM »
Quote

redrumloa wrote:
Quote

jiffydos wrote:
 The prometheus cards aren't meant for the desktop cases.  It may work, but I want to be able to close it all up neat.  


Ahem..

http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2383

 :-o


@red

Yes, it can be done, but it certainly still isn't ment to be used with a desktop A4000 in it's original case. It gives more meaning to use it in a towerised A4000D.
 

Offline redrumloa

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2008, 09:37:41 PM »
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doctorq wrote:
Yes, it can be done, but it certainly still isn't ment to be used with a desktop A4000 in it's original case. It gives more meaning to use it in a towerised A4000D.


It cab be done and it works flawlessly. I think it is worth mentioning as it is the ONLY way to have PCI cards without losing the video slot AFAIK.

Hey, I have a soft spot in my heart for the Prometheus :-)
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Offline doctorq

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2008, 09:43:18 PM »
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redrumloa wrote:
It cab be done and it works flawlessly. I think it is worth mentioning as it is the ONLY way to have PCI cards without losing the video slot AFAIK.


Yes, it can be done, I agreed with you already. I think the solution is a bit clumsy (extension cables, additional adapters needed, etc). I'd still leave it for a towerised A4000D.

But it's not the only way to have PCI cards without losing the video slot; G-Rex. Admitted, it has higher requirements, but it's still out there.

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Hey, I have a soft spot in my heart for the Prometheus :-)


We all know that :-)
 

Offline alexh

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2008, 09:58:29 PM »
Mechanically the prometheus just doesn't work in the desktop Amiga's. I mean come on:

http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A4D01.jpg

It didn't mechanically work well in the towered Amiga's either.

http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A4T01.jpg
http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A3T01.jpg

I am sure I read that the prometheus creator didn't particularly like the final design.

Matay probably knew they were only going to get one shot at this. High development and manufacture costs meant that the PCB they designed had to work mechanically in all Zorro III Amiga's so as to be compatible and hopefully lead to more sales. I think the big problem was that a lot of the A4000 desktop users had already towered their machines using a multitude of mechanically different cases and different Zorro busboards. They had to come up with a mechanical design that would work for all models.

I feel that this decision was a compromise too far, the Prometheus design resulted in being mechanically poor in all cases. There were things Matay could have done (but I dont think they did) to mitigate the problems:

o Matay could have tried to sell the PCI riser card you demonstrate in your example A4000D. I am almost sure this was a user discovery and a homebrew mod.

o Matay could have designed and sold metal brackets to make it easier to fit PCI cards safely and sturdily. I dont think that ever happened.

It was the right product (technologically speaking) and right time. Just a poor roll out and too many corners cut to lower costs. Matay should have targetted one case (probably official commodore A4000D) and created the best possible mechanical design. Then use the profits from those sales to pay for PCB reworks (and metal work, replacement back panels etc) for other cases.

This (to me) is just common sense... there must be more to the story we dont know... I wonder what it is?? Anyone?
 

Offline Argus

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2008, 12:46:33 PM »
I must say the Prometheus is the first pci board I bought and believe it or not, it does work better than the mediator on my A1200.  I used red's pci cable adapters to add a voodoo3 and realtek nic card in my A4000 desktop without having to discard the PicassoIV in the lowermost/video slot and I still have access to two additional Zorro3 slots (I think there's a serial card and a sound card in them....it's currently in the closet atm).  I did install one of those slot fans to help with heat but I ran it for a long while with the case closed and I still had flickerfixed AGA screens available (via the PIV).

If Jens ever releases the A4000 desktop version of his new FF, that would sort of replace the video slot lacking in the Mediator 4000Di design.
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Offline redrumloa

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2008, 01:13:42 PM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
Mechanically the prometheus just doesn't work in the desktop Amiga's. I mean come on:

http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A4D01.jpg

It didn't mechanically work well in the towered Amiga's either.

http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A4T01.jpg
http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A3T01.jpg


Do you remember what year the Prometheus was released? Do you know how many competing products were available at that time? And BTW your assertion that it works poorly in tower cases totally ignores Zipper's comment in this thread. In the case of the original orientation, it works better in some cases than others.

Quote
Matay could have tried to sell the PCI riser card you demonstrate in your example A4000D. I am almost sure this was a user discovery and a homebrew mod.


Umm, that would be me. Matay was essentially out of the Amiga market and my company, Anachronism Industries, demonstrated this possibility and sold many kits. You can call us doing a "user discover" if you wish as we were a 4 person company at the peak of it's short existance. Here's a hint for you, there is not a single major corporation in the Amiga community. Not now, not in 2004 and not in 2001. Anachronism Industries employing 4 people edged out probably every other "Amiga" related company out there by a factor of 4X at the time.

Anyhow, splitting hairs. It worked and made many customers happy for a fraction of the cost of a Mediator and you never had to worry about hard drive trashing, other hardware mysteriously stop working, license issues or other nonsense.

Quote
Matay could have designed and sold metal brackets to make it easier to fit PCI cards safely and sturdily. I dont think that ever happened.


You would be thinking wrong. Every Prometheus was sold with sturdy metal brackets

Quote
It was the right product (technologically speaking) and right time. Just a poor roll out and too many corners cut to lower costs. Matay should have targetted one case (probably official commodore A4000D) and created the best possible mechanical design. Then use the profits from those sales to pay for PCB reworks (and metal work, replacement back panels etc) for other cases.


You are entitled to your opinion, I just think it is strongly misguided. You know what year the Prometheus was released? Do you know how many were produced in total? Do you know what quantity most major Amiga hardware releases are produced in? Let's just say very few companies do it for the money and many end up losing money. A common rumor is Matay lost money big time. I don't remember if Prometheus production details were ever made public, but I can say that Matay did not get rich. My company bought out the remaining stock and sold approximately 33% of all Prometheus ever made in one year, in part because of our super aggresive pricing, and to a lesser extent making it available to desktop users. When all was said and done, it was a major investment and we barely broke even on the product. No complaints, it was a loss leader, we did ok overall, mostly on non-Amiga product. Don't be fooled into thinking Elbox is raking in the cash or is a big company. You will probably never see another full new product from them again, just minor redesigns.

This is getting a bit off topic. I like Prometheus, you don't. You like Mediator, I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions.
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Offline kreciu

Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2008, 02:38:30 PM »
 
Quote
Don't be fooled into thinking Elbox is raking in the cash or is a big company. You will probably never see another full new product from them again, just minor redesigns.



Unfortunately this become reality for me... :(
Re-A1200inE/BOX/3.2/AmigaOS3.2/TF1260@66Mhz/256Mb/MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/FDD-HD
 

Offline alexh

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Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2008, 03:20:11 PM »
Quote

redrumloa wrote:
You know what year the Prometheus was released?

Late 2000, early 2001? I remember posting to usenet with Grzegorz Kraszewski about AmiPCI (original name) in 1999 when I joined my first hardware company after leaving University.

Quote

redrumloa wrote:
Do you know how many were produced in total?

No. I'd like to though. Hint Hint.

Quote

redrumloa wrote:
Do you know what quantity most major Amiga hardware releases are produced in?

200 - 1000 units. Obviously there is the price break at 1000 units which can sometimes work out cheaper than making fewer units.

Quote

redrumloa wrote:
Let's just say very few companies do it for the money and many end up losing money.

Absolutely.

Quote

redrumloa wrote:
I don't remember if Prometheus production details were ever made public, but I can say that Matay did not get rich.

I can very well imagine. I am always amazed any Amiga hardware project ever breaks even.

Quote

redrumloa wrote:
Don't be fooled into thinking Elbox is raking in the cash or is a big company. You will probably never see another full new product from them again, just minor redesigns.

They are not a good company. Their ethos is to make money at all costs. But they are still around, hats off to them.

Quote

redrumloa wrote:
I like Prometheus, you don't. You like Mediator, I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions.

Actually I liked the G-Rex ;-)

I never understood why the Golden Gate 2+ never took off between 1994 and 2000! At least for sound cards and network cards. It was an incredibly cheap to make card. It is almost unheard of.
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Mediator Review - Should I buy one?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2008, 03:26:12 PM »
I like Zorro II (good actor play ;) ) but I use Mediator (better communication and mediations...).

Zorro is the best!!!

 :-D
Re-A1200inE/BOX/3.2/AmigaOS3.2/TF1260@66Mhz/256Mb/MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/FDD-HD