How about creating a Open AMIGA Consortium?

[persia]

The retro-future version is more do-able.  The Amiga belongs in the last century, leave it there but allow use to use modern parts, USB keybords, mice and joysticks.  Improve the graphics so they are a little less retro.  A hobby machine that you can tinker with.  Maybe one you can plug a USB camera into and play with video capture.  Part of the charm of Amiga is that it's pre-turn of the century technology.

The hobbyist really has nothing to play with these days, even Amateur radio is being overwhelmed with technology. you used to be able to build your own transceiver and throw an antenna in the tree, now it's digital controlled hi-tech stuff.

All the homebuild gee-whiz kits are gone.  Remember Heathkit?  It's a market that whilst small is wide open.  No competition.

The Amiga, the ultimate Luddite's PC!

:pint:

[abbub]

Sig:  So, on the one hand, you have projects like Minimig making your hardware desires possible.  Modern storage medium, modern keyboard, modern mouse, etc. with A500 compatibility.  I get that, in the same sense that I get the DTV hacks.  Backwards compatibility with a smaller, more efficient, modern design.

The key being backwards compatibility with the classic Amigas.  And it strikes me that if you start tampering too much with the OS in order to modernize it, you're going to run into problems with that compatibility...forcing the software to run under constraints (or without constraints, in the case of HDD size) that it was never designed to deal with  and that it's completely untested on.

Persia: you really hit the nail on the head, with regards to the hobbyist thing.  That's what drew me back to playing with my A2000.

[Sig999]

abbub wrote:
Sig:  So, on the one hand, you have projects like Minimig making your hardware desires possible.  Modern storage medium, modern keyboard, modern mouse, etc. with A500 compatibility.  I get that, in the same sense that I get the DTV hacks.  Backwards compatibility with a smaller, more efficient, modern design.

The key being backwards compatibility with the classic Amigas.  And it strikes me that if you start tampering too much with the OS in order to modernize it, you're going to run into problems with that compatibility...forcing the software to run under constraints (or without constraints, in the case of HDD size) that it was never designed to deal with  and that it's completely untested on.

Persia: you really hit the nail on the head, with regards to the hobbyist thing.  That's what drew me back to playing with my A2000.

I think that minimig is a fantastic 'first step' - I'll wait a little bit to see what happens next before I get one though - for me programming is a big part of my Amiga experience, so minimig's not quite there for me yet, but eventually it could be.  The little project I'm working on at the moment (game) I'm trying to keep up with minimig's progress so it will be compatible with it.

As for OS upgrading etc - I understand that incompatabilities will arise, this is why I think a 'baby steps' approach is a good idea - to transition from Classic to 'something else'.  Take too big a step and you have a whole new system but nothing for it.

As for things such as HD partition size - for me it wouldn't be a huge setback to have to allow for a 4gig partition if needed because some older software expects that - so long as I would be able to also have larger partitions for software that doesn't.

It's getting harder to find older hardware - and that's across the board really, even for some older (like 5 year) PC's - sometimes it amazes me that I can still find hardware at all for the 15+ year Amiga.

[trekiej]

I believe a revival is going on.  One thing that seems to be building is momentum.

[biggun]

persia wrote:
The retro-future version is more do-able.  [...] Allow use to use modern parts, USB keybords, mice and joysticks.  Improve the graphics so they are a little less retro.  

So you are proposing to use the NATAMI, are you ?
Have you seen: http://www.natami.net/

Its backward compatible to A1200 and A4000 but allows to use USB, Ethernet, oldl and new Amiga OS friendly truecolor resolutions with 1280x1024 and 24bit audio.

[Einstein]

abbub wrote:

Sig999 wrote:
If they can recapture the fun of the old machine, they'll have a winner. My PC doesn't keep me up till midnight flipping through old books and wading through pages of 68k assembly.  Linux doesn't make me stop mid-coffee and run to the keyboard to give something 'just one more try'...

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but part of the 'fun' of it for me is the simplicity.  When you start introducing modern hardware, the features of a modern operating system, etc., that simplicity has a tendency to vanish.

Explain please!

I'm still curious as to what the modern features people want to add to Amiga OS, and how they intend to implement these without the Amiga OS morphing into the existing operating systems they're seeking to avoid.

If you havent noticed what features some people want in the OS then it's pretty hopeless explaining forever and ever ...and ever, isn't it ?

[persia]

Yah, Natami is realistic and doable, state of the art isn't, and even if state of the art were it isn't what most Amiga users want.

Natami is the hobbyist approach, todays Macs and PCs are too easy, just tick a box, the Amiga makes you think and understand what you are doing.  It's a learning tool to help understand the basics.

AROS has the most difficult role, bring the Amiga to modern hardware but reproduce the outdated system, major mistake, AmigaDos can't be fixed, it makes wrong assumptions, the same wrong assumptions that killed the Dos/Windows XX and MacOS.  You need a new kernel, reproducing the Amiga kernel is a formula for disaster down the road.

Me, I'm buying a MacPro for real work, a Natami for play and getting rid of the 2000 and probably the iMac.

I certainly hope the Natami likes my 3.5 TB RAID when I hook it up to the network... How does Amiga do with SMB or AFP drives?

[Einstein]

biggun wrote:

Likewise, the OS required to support this modern hardware scales up quickly in terms of complexity and needed resources. Look at linux.

I fully agree. Linux has of course many nice things.
But some of its "modern advantages" are paid with by serious complexity and performance issues.

If on Linux a application uses a device then there is for security reasons no direct connection between the application and the device.
This means that if a user application wants to write something to this device it will write this in its user space buffer. The kernel is than called to copy this user space buffer into the kernel space device buffer. The same complex handling is done when the packets return form the device.

This way is "more secure" of course but also twice as slow as the AMIGA solution.
We are writing 10G Ethernet drivers at work and the way Linux handles this is seriously impacting performance.

The beauty of the AMIGA solution is that its more elegant, simpler and faster!

Faster huh ? then why not just use TOS or MS-DOS, I bet no AmigaOS app will ever be as fast as one under these, and due to the non-multitasking nature it means one is less likely to loose data in some running app(s) because another one just did bring down the OS, MS-DOS rulez I guess.

[abbub]

Einstein wrote:
Explain please!

It's pretty self-explanatory, isn't it?  

When you start adding features to an operating system, the complexity of that system goes up.  Want to add a web browser?  Well, you'll also need to add a TCP/IP stack and the network drivers for your supported hardware, as well as a way to configure all of that.  Then someone says, "well, we now have built in networking, so why not go one more step and add wireless? , which opens a whole other can of worms.  You add something like simple USB support, but why doesn't the mouse wheel work when I have my USB mouse plugged in?  You'll have to add support for that so that the wheel is  standardized throughout all of the programs.  And third mouse button support that's also standardized.  And I want those multimedia keys on my USB keyboard to do something, so we should have a way to configure those in the OS, too.  And so on and so fourth.  

Before long, adding all of these little tweaks and add-ons results in an OS that now has a 500 MB footprint and needs a half a gig of memory just to boot.  All of the simplicity (and speed) of the OS is gone.  You're left with yet another operating system in a sea of operating systems, and chances are, you've also left real Amiga support somewhere behind you, because convincing programs written in 1988 to play nice on a modern system is a daunting task.  Of course, you could probably port UAE to your new Amiga, and run your Amiga software on your Amiga under emulation...?!

If you havent noticed what features some people want in the OS then it's pretty hopeless explaining forever and ever ...and ever, isn't it ?

One person on here (Sig1999) has answered my question with regards to what he feels are modern features... >4 GB support and the ability to use PS/2 keyboards.  (Though I'd argue that PS/2 keyboards are just a stop gap, and for real future proofing you'd need USB.)  In any event, I'm not sure how you expect me to 'notice' something that very few people have commented on.

[Einstein]

abbub wrote:

Einstein wrote:
Explain please!

It's pretty self-explanatory, isn't it?

When you start adding features to an operating system, the complexity of that system goes up.  Want to add a web browser?  Well, you'll also need to add a TCP/IP stack and the network drivers for your supported hardware, as well as a way to configure all of that.  Then someone says, "well, we now have built in networking, so why not go one more step and add wireless? , which opens a whole other can of worms.  You add something like simple USB support, but why doesn't the mouse wheel work when I have my USB mouse plugged in?  You'll have to add support for that so that the wheel is  standardized throughout all of the programs.  And third mouse button support that's also standardized.  And I want those multimedia keys on my USB keyboard to do something, so we should have a way to configure those in the OS, too.  And so on and so fourth.  

Before long, adding all of these little tweaks and add-ons results in an OS that now has a 500 MB footprint and needs a half a gig of memory just to boot.  All of the simplicity (and speed) of the OS is gone.

So you mean it will be more complex *internally*, I could swear it sounded it would get more complex for end users. But what did you expect, on the other hand if yuo hate complexity then why not not just ditch the OS in favour of MS-DOS, or better yet, hardware hitting application framework (+ drivers), and just get rid of the overhead that's added to he OS b/c the need of multi-tasking ?

You're left with yet another operating system in a sea of operating systems,

Yea, just like AmigaOS like systems, yet other OSs in the the sea of OSs... (!)

and chances are, you've also left real Amiga support somewhere behind you, because convincing programs written in 1988 to play nice on a modern system is a daunting task.  Of course, you could probably port UAE to your new Amiga, and run your Amiga software on your Amiga under emulation...?!

Not on "my Amiga". All these efforts put into all these projects, only a fraction of it is needed to integrate UAE at a clearly acceptable level into a clearly advanced OS and get on with life.

If you havent noticed what features some people want in the OS then it's pretty hopeless explaining forever and ever ...and ever, isn't it ?

One person on here (Sig1999) has answered my question with regards to what he feels are modern features... >4 GB support and the ability to use PS/2 keyboards.  (Though I'd argue that PS/2 keyboards are just a stop gap, and for real future proofing you'd need USB.)  In any event, I'm not sure how you expect me to 'notice' something that very few people have commented on.

Than it's possible that you started reading this board (and others) yesterday, in that case it's understandable.

[Sig999]

abbub wrote:

One person on here (Sig1999) has answered my question with regards to what he feels are modern features... >4 GB support and the ability to use PS/2 keyboards.  (Though I'd argue that PS/2 keyboards are just a stop gap, and for real future proofing you'd need USB.)  In any event, I'm not sure how you expect me to 'notice' something that very few people have commented on.

I'd say they are stop gap too! But saying 'I want hobbyists to build the next Amiga board with built in full support for USB 2, etc. etc. etc.' would be unreasonable (to me anyways).

It's what I was talking about with 'baby steps' - give me a ps2 mouse and keyboard for now - I can still buy them fairly easily.

Same for HD's and CD roms - I know SATA is where it's at now... but hey, if IDE is an easier first step - make it.. only when the only thing I can find is a 200gig drive... please don't make me format it into 50 4 gig partitions! (if such a thing were possible it would look HYSTERICAL on my wb screen.. would there even be enough space for the icons? - and god imagine Diropus!)

I'm in a strange fencesitting position I guess where I love the Amiga as a retro machine - and I think its 'new life' will be in the hobbyist realm and not back in the mainstream again.... that being said - it is an absolute and total PITA to deal with 880k floppys (well it's becoming a PITA to deal with floppies at all really) - and transferring stuff across a null modem cable from the PC...because I'm not about to spend 150 bucks on a network card for the Ami at this point........

You see where I'm coming from?

I'm not in the camp of 'The Amiga will rise and kick arse once more!' - but I'd really like to see it have some longevity via new hardware.... and if an OS eventually follows (thought I totally doubt that) - I'd like to throw some suggestions out there for what I'd like.

[Einstein]

Sig999 wrote:

I'm not in the camp of 'The Amiga will rise and kick arse once more!'

Not me either, but I just cannot hope on something that will get its arse kicked by anything, anytime, anywhere

[abbub]

Einstein wrote:
So you mean it will be more complex *internally*, I could swear it sounded it would get more complex for end users. But what did you expect, on the other hand if yuo hate complexity then why not not just ditch the OS in favour of MS-DOS, or better yet, hardware hitting application framework (drivers), and just get rid of the overhead that's added to he OS b/c the need of multi-tasking ?

Because running OS X, XP, or Ubuntu is a lot easier than finding a browser, email client, and TCP/IP stack for MS-DOS and juggling with the memory manager in CONFIG.SYS to get it all working.  

But I think you're taking my thoughts out of the context of this particular thread.  My thoughts regarding the complexity of the operating system is that  the things that make the Amiga unique (largely intangible and undefinable, I think) would be lost in this transition to a modern OS.

On here, there's talk of modernizing the Operating System and Hardware.  My question is (and has been) to what end?  

As I've said, in the case of Minimig, Natami, etc., I can see it.  You're basically creating a hobby machine that has access to modern peripherals.  In other words, you're creating a clone (using modern hardware) of a 20 year old system.

But going beyond that and trying to create a new, high tech Amiga  with 'state of the art' graphics, processor, etc., and a new OS to run on it...  I don't get it.  Seems like using a Workbench-emulating window manager on a linux or BSD system with PC hardware is probably a better, easier solution.

Than it's possible that you started reading this board (and others) yesterday, in that case it's understandable.

Well, two weeks ago, but your point remains.

[Sig999]

Einstein wrote:

Sig999 wrote:

I'm not in the camp of 'The Amiga will rise and kick arse once more!'

Not me either, but I just cannot hope on something that will get its arse kicked by anything, anytime, anywhere

agreed we're kind of like agnostics at mass

[abbub]

Sig:

I totally see where you're coming from, and I agree with it.  I think that, to a certain degree, the amount of collectors (there are quite a number of people on this board with 3-6 Amiga's listed in their sig) have created a scarcity of 'classic hardware' that makes the 'new clones' all the more attractive.

[Einstein]

@abbub, since you've not read the board long enough then it's a good start to search for the relevant keywords (dunno, memory protection, x, y, z..)with the search form