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Offline Floid

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Re: PowerPC G5 on a AmigaOne EX systems...
« Reply #14 from previous page: July 31, 2003, 07:51:14 PM »
Quote

BlackMonk wrote:

I think it is API, Apple Processor Interconnect.  Designed by Apple and made/implemented by IBM.

It's something like that, anyway.

Don't forget that the PPC970 supports many multiples.  So one could possibly run a 2.0 GHz PPC970 with, what, a 500 MHz FSB?  I forget the exact multiples but a motherboard manufacturer might be able to take some "shortcuts" if the high FSB is an issue.

(FSB meaning the p2p CPU connections to the northbridge, not to include the memory bus or PCI bus, etc.)
Sounds right; I think they were abbreviating it ApplePI, now that you remind me.  I forgot about that little announcement, and for some stupid reason I've been assuming this was a serialized design (a-la HyperTransport)...  The Ars article says different, though: it's DDR, and "Since the bus composed of two unidirectional channels, each 32 bits wide," ... so maybe it's within the realm of feasibility, if someone (IBM?) coughs up an MPX bridge cheap.

The thing is, though, everyone knows Motorola's lost the desktop race for now, and appear almost happy to be out of it, what with potentially putting the processor unit up for sale.  IBM's going to have to balance the desire to support their own legacy customers ("Hey guys, have we got an upgrade for you!") -- including Mai, Marvell, Eyetech, Genesi, and all the other little and not-so-little guys that form the broader market for PPC -- with the desire to push forward with the competetive chip, avoid paying more 'cooperation fees' to the Motorolan black-hole for MPX -- (wonder how much AltiVec cost them?), and move forward  the architecture that actually *is* competetive, shipping low-clock, low-bus-speed versions to cover the fat end of the embedded market, which could always use more power anyway.  I'm going to bet the "Appleness" of the interconnect is only an encumbrance for northbridge manufacturers, so that aspect should be encapsulated away in epoxy or ceramic by the time Mai or Marvell ship a supporting product.  (One has to doubt whether Apple really *likes* designing all their own bridges, anyway; I'd wager they'd rather be designing added value to hang off them, a-la Firewire and the like.  Of course, that'd force them to *think,* and Jobs is at the helm, so you never know.)

IBM seems to think the 750GX is good enough for now, and they have the resources to run off an entire new *CPU* with a different interconnect if they want.  

But... why is it unlikely to see them bother?  Let's face it; board manufacture itself is cheap.  The Inquirer says it, and whether or not you want to trust them, you can't deny the surprisingly healthy state of the x86 board market, even with new chipsets (and thus new designs) every few weeks, the global economy somewhat in the toilet, the whole SARS thing, and little compelling in the CPU area until the Opteron launched.  What's expensive are the initial investments - setting up the businesses around the boards, ensuring the equipment is up to date (able to operate with enough precision for ever-shrinking components) - R&D costs - and, in the case of outsourcing small runs, paying for all the setup times (and *their* equipment costs) when the company could be running off commodity DIMMs, thermostats, or something else that doesn't change much.  All the big names from Taiwan have already gone through this, probably getting a boost from the .com boom; our favorites in the game have missed that chance, but as long as they live to get over the hump, and pay down past mistakes (each company's had one, after all) there're clear skies, bigger volumes, lower prices, and a  'sustainable' market to look forward to.

Having to redesign for 970 will cause some grumbling, especially as everyone's taken a hit for one reason or another, but meanwhile, the GX doesn't look like a bad little chip, and it's the northbridge companies' jobs to produce implementable solutions, and the board companies' jobs to design boards.  Unless Mai or Marvell screw up, I'd think we could avoid the underclocked buses (hmm, wonder if Apple can impose price-hikes for bus licenses based on MHz?), and stick to playing in the same leagues as the big boys.
 

Offline IBase

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Re: PowerPC G5 on a AmigaOne EX systems...
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2003, 12:55:56 AM »
I have bad feelings about adapting a G4 board for use with the new PPC970, it is not a bus question but a more complex question: there is a range of things to fix in order to achieve the expected performance level from these CPUs and Apple know this well.
According to one of  their Tech-notes
(http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2087.html)
the list of DOs and DONTs is quite long and involves even such common things like type conversion, cache access, ...
Oh, I was forgotting the best: the 970 lacks some cache control instructions the G4 implements, so the cache section of the AmigaOS 4 would have to be rewritten anyway!

Bye,
Claudio
 

Offline tekmage

Re: PowerPC G5 on a AmigaOne EX systems...
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2003, 04:18:49 AM »
I doubt the OS can be "delayed" any longer by any action MAI logic can take.  In fact MAI seams to like Hyperion, the conversations I had with Ben Hermans at AmiWest where very positive regarding MAI.  I'm sure when the OS is done the work to support a 970 board should just be a matter of drivers.  Given that similar drivers need to be created for the current shipping AmigaOne mobo's the work should proceed rapidly.  

All that said I'm upbeat about Hyperions chances on releasing OS 4 for CSPPC this year and possibly a few months before Chrismas!  I also think that OS 4 for AmigaOne will be available 2 to 3 months after OS 4 CSPPC.  I'm guessing that when the smoke clears both MorphOS and OS 4 will be running on shipping 970 based product around the same time.  Assuming both efforts still exist :)

Bill "tekmage" Borsari

OS 4 is coming... prepare your self!
 

Offline vortexau

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Re: PowerPC G5 on a AmigaOne EX systems...
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2003, 04:35:00 PM »
strobe broke the NEWS:
Quote
PS: You still don't have an OS:lol:

Thank you -- that was much-needed information.

(Actually, little-good would it do me as I'm still awaiting my XE system)
-vortexau; who\\\'s still waiting! (-for AmigaOS4! ;-) )
savage Ami bridge parody
 

Offline minator

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Re: PowerPC G5 on a AmigaOne EX systems...
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2003, 07:14:15 PM »
Quote
I think it is API, Apple Processor Interconnect.  Designed by Apple and made/implemented by IBM.

It's something like that, anyway.


The 970 bus is not an Apple thing, IBM were showing off this technology a few years ago.
Apple have a tendancy to rename things whether they belong to them or not.

Also, Altivec is not a Motorola thing - it was a joint project but designed by Apple.  Only the name belongs to Motorola.  Apple called it "Velocity Engine"

The GX sounds interesting but if anything they should put the new bus onto it and get the benefit of the new NorthBridges.

On the other hand I think IBM should do an AMD and put the memory controller on die and add Hypertransport for the 980.  That way we could use Opteron chip sets and save ourselves a *lot* of hassle and get PCI express in a reasonable time frame.
 

Offline DeQuevedo

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Re: PowerPC G5 on a AmigaOne EX systems...
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2003, 09:33:52 PM »
Hi Dudes!
*ANY* AMiGA machine with a G5 processor series would rule!

Have Fun Infected Incubes!

-El Puto DeQ
---------------------------------------

-Have Fun infected Incubes!
 

Offline redfox

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Re: PowerPC G5 on a AmigaOne EX systems...
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2003, 10:21:58 PM »
@fatman

Yes ... that would be 8-) .
:idea: ... maybe it will be used in the "consumer" version :-D .

---------------
redfox