MorphOS for AmigaONE

[HyperionMP]

Not if that were finished, it would indeed be a non-proprietary implementation of Openfirmware.

And we have been aware of that project for some time.

Don't forget that the original Teron boards used a proprietary OF Rom developed by Softex.

Mai didn't feel like continuing with more proprietary firmware so they chose PPCBoot instead which they could freely adapt and copy themselves.

So we did look into that open source project at the time but its state was very much unsuitable for our purpose.

U-Boot is in fact used by tons of embedded system hardware using a variety of different CPU's like PPC and StrongArm/X-Scale.

Why?

Because if they went for OF instead, they would have to hire a company to adapt its proprietary OF implementation to a specific piece of hardware.

No such problems with U-Boot.

You can either adapt it to your own hardware or hire somebody else to do it.

Either way, you'll get full disclosure of the source-code and are free to copy and adapt it.

[DaveP]

Nate

industry standard system originally proposed by Sun Microsystems and Apple Computers, and used by millions of machines in the US alone.

In other words, it's not proprietory.

Your argument boils down to something isn't open if it does not follow
an IEEE, W3C or OMG managed standard? Come on! But lets move on from
that - we know that it isn't a proper standard. So your second part is that it is
standard because its used by millions of devices.

So.....    ..... is Windows more "Open" than AROS?

So, given that it is not a proper standard, its not more open or less than U-Boot (GPL) how
about you just live with it. U-Boot is not proprietary.

[Frodon]

Hello,

"What we would really need is full disclosure of the hardware documentation (all chipsets) and of the firmware including the ability to reflash the rom."

http://www.mai.com/ (I'm sure you already have the documentation for this one)

http://www.via.com.tw/ (I'm sure you can have documentation for the southbridge easily from them as you should already be under NDA with them for the AmigaOne southbridge)

http://www.codegen.com/SmartFirmware/index.html
(Should not be too difficult also)

I'm sure that if you start investigating and start to work already on the port, you'll see it's not as much difficult as you think.

Regards

[Hammer]

@Frodon

I recall in one of Alan of Eyetech’s power-point lectures; they mentioned problems with obtaining the appropriate documentation from some of the said companies.  

[Hammer]

is Windows more "Open" than AROS?

Which Windows? Does Windows CE ring any bell? “Windows CE” was the first Windows to be “open sourced” by Microsoft.

@Frodon:

If they don't have those docs already I wonder how the hell they're coding on the AmigaOne if, and that's a big if, they really do have anything substantial to show besides a text-based boot loader. Somehow I doubt they have


@HyperionMP:

Just because IEEE "withdrew" the standard does not make it less of a standard or a current technology. The IEEE standards process requires that for a published document the working group needs to constantly work on it: and when they stop, the standard "lapses" - or to be more positive, becomes "finalised" and nothing more is added to it.

All it means really is that you can't buy the paper docs from the IEEE anymore, there is no discussion, and no more work is going to be done on it in terms of standards process.

Given that Sun and Apple (note that neither of them "own" it), and use it with great success, this does not do much for your "it's no standard" issue, and makes it non-proprietary.

UBoot, however, is a completely custom and by dictionary definition, proprietary interface designed to boot many machines into Linux, primarily. It has minimal functionality, and a non-ratified API. It may be OpenSource, but that just means the specification and code is free to use: not that it is not proprietary.

The GPL actually PROTECTS author ownership of code, that's the whole point of the GPL!

UBoot is copyright of, property of, proprietary to, the UBoot project, in any legal or non-legal sense.

.. therefore, since Pegasos is based on a standard hardware platform, designed by a group of very large hardware and software companies a while back (CHRP is an Apple/IBM/Motorola invention and is well documented) and utilises OpenFirmware - another standard, used as specified by the CHRP standard - and the actual components of the motherboard are rarely different to the ones on AmigaOne (same Northbridge, all the old Via southbridges have very similar ATA100, USB etc. register sets), you can port it.


@Whoever asked why Ben has to go to Paris:

You really think we don't want to talk to him about the project he's about to undertake, and possibly demonstrate other systems and solutions for him?

He could run away and take the board to Thomas and Hans-Joerg and have it working on his own if he wanted to, but you'd really rather like to talk to the hardware designers, right?



@The guy with the butterfly:

Bill has said before that one of the ideas is to distribute software written for MorphOS with a copy of the OS on an "autorunning" CD for certain platforms. Mac might be one of them (imagine putting a game on there and it being MorphOS underneath). This would be MorphOSOnMac, in the same way that you have MacOnLinux.

The other possibility is that since MacOnLinux has the ability to load an Apple OpenFirmware ROM from disk, you can hijack it like Linux does on a real Mac (effectively being MorphOS running native, insofar as Linux runs native after Apple's bootstrap finishes).

Since MorphOS only needs OpenFirmware to boot, all you'd need then is some rudimentary drivers for system components (most of  the operation of which can be derived from the emulations in MacOnLinux)

[HyperionMP]

Matt, I'm not going to debate the definition of "proprietary" to death here but the point is that "proprietary" refers to something being somebody's property, being "owned" by someone.

In the context of intangible assets, proprietary refers to the existence of intellectual and industrial property rights governing these assets.

In that sense an implementation of OF by a specific company is proprietary because they hold the copyright on this implementation.

This is impossible with the GPL license.

With respect to U-Boot versus OF, U-boot is very widely used as well by numerous vendors.

Moreover, the U-Boot shipping with the current AmigaOne hardware is by far more feature-rich that the Pegasos' OF (to the extent that anybody cares).

[Frodon]

Hello,

"With respect to U-Boot versus OF, U-boot is very widely used as well by numerous vendors.

Moreover, the U-Boot shipping with the current AmigaOne hardware is by far more feature-rich that the Pegasos' OF (to the extent that anybody cares)."

Do you care to elaborate please?

Regards

[HyperionMP]

Just a few examples: U-Boot nows has tons of configuration menues which allows you to tweak all kinds of Articia S settings (PCI/AGP), the location of parallel and serial ports & modes, selection of booting devices, integrated diagnostic code, support for Port 80/Post type cards, support for the Catweasel controller etc. etc.

[Frodon]

Hello,

"Just a few examples: U-Boot nows has tons of configuration menues which allows you to tweak all kinds of Articia S settings (PCI/AGP), the location of parallel and serial ports & modes"

Well I'm personnally not a fan of GUI for BIOS/Firmware (so I don't really like PC BIOS as most have GUI), as for me advanced settings like that are only for people who know what they do.
And normally these people are used to command lines and scripts and for me command lines/scripts are far more powerful for advanced settings than a GUI.

And so additionnaly, command lines/scripts for these kind of advanced settings discourage normal users to tweak them and so it's help to avoid users that don't know what they do to do bad things on the BIOS/Firmware.

But that is just my personal opinion. That's why I really like the OF on both my Mac and my Pegasos, and far more than a BIOS on a PC.

But of course for selecting what OS to boot, a GUI is useful. In fact just like what my Mac do The OF in itself is text based, but there is a graphical boot selector (you get it by pressing Alt at boot time) to select on which OS you want to boot.

Regards

[HyperionMP]

I really don't understand that.

I mean, it is not like you accidentally end up in the firmware configuration menues, you need to take action to do so.

If you have no business there and that should hold for most users most of the time, you'll never even notice that these menues are there.

[Frodon]

Hello,

@HyperionMP

Well my point was more that command lines/scripts are IMHO far more powerful (it can even allow to access to more than the available settings that a GUI would limitate to (as in that case you are limited to the entries in the menus)).

But it's just a matter of opinion, if you don't understand, then just forget it.

Regards

[Warface]

I haven't seen the AmigaONE boot, yet I think the boot handling part is a "the less I see it the better" thing.

So it has absolutely no interest of the user, unless something gone way wrong. If you can then fix it, then good. If not, then bad bad bad.

[olegil]

@Neko:

Not quite what I asked for, but ok. If that's your plan, port MOS to Mac hardware and I'll give it a go under MOL ;-)

Personally, I have the only AmigaOne that runs with Softex Openfirmware (that I know of), due to it having a 686A chipset. So if Genesis sends me a flashrom with Softex on it and a CD with MOS, I'll be happy to test it. I can't promise I'll keep it installed, but I would certainly give it a once-over ;-)

But the AmigaOne as sold today doesn't AFAIK support OF...

[Ami603]

In this case,what it really matters,is the choice.As in the U-Boot you can use both menu or command line whatever you prefer.

[olegil]

@downix:

Thanks for that insult.

Now go back and read my posting again. The problem is THERE IS NO WORKING OPENFIRMWARE IMPLEMENTATION _AS FAR AS I KNOW_ THAT SUPPORTS THE AMIGAONE WITH A 686B SOUTHBRIDGE.

Thanks for playing, but you'll need to insert more coins.

The problem is then that YOU CAN'T REFLASH THE AMIGAONE WITH THE TERON OF BECAUSE IT WILL NOT BOOT, HENCE IT WON'T BOOT MOS EITHER.

Got it now? I didn't think so.